Rev. Joseph Peters-Mathews, gay married priest and father of two, joins us to explain the importance of the Bible, what it says about gay stuff, religious fundamentalists, and shrimp rules.
In this episode: News- 2:28 || Main Topic (The Bible)- 14:07 || Guest (Joseph Peters-Mathews)- 19:25 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:02:06
If you want to see us live, tickets are still available for our stops in Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, and Houston. Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for dates, details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
On the Patreon bonus segment, we talk about gayta for gay and trans acceptance among Christians. Get bonus segments, episodes, and lots of other great perks by joining Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
Sponsor: JoinDeleteMe.com/Gayish and use the promo code GAYISH for 20% off.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast with a heart of gold…en showers.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. [chuckles] Great.
KYLE GETZ
Fill me up, baby.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And, today…
KYLE GETZ
Today… [Mike sighs] thump your Bibles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Flip through the pages. Find Ezekiel 17:41 and read it to me, because we’re talking about the Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Get ready to know your wife, everybody, because it’s the Bible.
KYLE GETZ
Aw. You’re gonna make references to the Bible that I will not understand.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
But the people listening will.
MIKE JOHNSON
The Bible uses the word “knew”, like, to mean “they fucked”.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, like, so and so “knew” so and so: that means that they fucked.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I knew like three guys this weekend.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, exactly.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But first… Uh, we’re back in Seattle.
KYLE GETZ
We’re in Seattle!
MIKE JOHNSON
After the live show.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
…In New York.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We had one week, [chuckles] and now we’re back to normal.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Thanks again for coming to the show, everybody. It was fun.
KYLE GETZ
It was a lot of fun. It was a whirlwind trip for us. Yeah, it was great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it was great. Looking forward to than the other ones.
KYLE GETZ
It was so nice meeting so many people that cared- clearly cared a lot about us and the show. And I did not realize this: like, I think most people there have social anxiety of some kind. So, if you’re worried about going to a show because of that, like, you will not be the only one there, and you’ll meet people that know Gayish, know the show, and kind of get it, and are cool and chill. That’s just- was my vibe from everyone we met.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, absolutely. There’s also, um… a surrealness of, like, when people walk up to us and they’re clearly nervous to talk to us. I’m like “It’s just Kyle, everybody.” [both chuckle] Or “It’s just-”
KYLE GETZ
No, be fuckin’ nervous. [Mike laughs] You shall tremble before me, for I am your God. That’s from the Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Great.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. It’s an-
KYLE GETZ
And I shall know you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ezekiel… something? Okay. Great. Uh, that’s enough about that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Gayishpodcast.com/live. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Now the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, this is not news the first, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, what is it?
MIKE JOHNSON
…Because he does not deserve a whole news item.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
If you don’t want to hear me talk evil about dead people, [Kyle chuckles] you should skip ahead several minutes. Pat Robertson is dead. Fuck that guy, fuck everything he stood for. The world is a better place without him. I hope that he is rotting in hell. I would like to encourage everyone to use his grave as a public restroom. Fuck that guy. He is dead, and…
KYLE GETZ
…Shit on his grave? Is that what- [Mike laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. He evil. He’s an evil, evil fucker. And, for those of you who have the, like, “Don’t speak ill of the dead,” thing: he fucking started it. Quote, “AIDS is God’s way of weeding his garden.” He said that as early as 1983. Fuck him.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. News the first!
KYLE GETZ
Okay. [chuckles] Whew!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, news the first: right here in my backyard, at the bottom of the hill here on Aloha, is a restaurant called “Tanoor”. The owner of Tanoor’s name is Wassim Fayed, and he is also – there two locations to this restaurant, the other one is in a town called “Sammamish”, Washington – and he was on the city of Sammamish Planning Commission and they went through diversity, equity, and inclusion training a couple of weeks ago, and he came in front of a public – you can see it on YouTube – Planning Commission meeting on June 1st so that he could say, among other things, quote, [Mike groans] God… “I don’t think LGBT people should be considered a minority. Because of my Muslim faith, I disagree with that lifestyle,” and he described queer people, in a lengthy diatribe, as “wealthy, well-connected disease spreaders who infect and poison the minds of children in schools through movies and television.” He said that gay people are against God’s intentions, and is just a super-duper fuckface dickbag asshole. Now, because of the backlash of it, he resigned from Sammamish Planning Commission.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. That’s good.
MIKE JOHNSON
There has been a van that has been parked out front of the restaurant here, with a QR code that points to the YouTube of him saying all of these things just openly, like it’s perfectly natural in a public meeting.
KYLE GETZ
That’s really- Wow, thank you to that person, whoever that is doing that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. So please don’t eat at that restaurant. I know I’m being hyperlocal but it’s, like-
KYLE GETZ
Really- [chuckles] Really low-targeting local, but hey.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I do think that there is a- There is a theme here, and I’ve talked about it on the show a lot. They are extra crazy this year.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The anti-LGBT folks are extra loud, extra crazy. This is the worst year of my entire out life, and I’ve been out for 15 years.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it is scary as fuck. And it’s always about God, it’s always about religion. So here’s a theme for today’s episode, because we’re talking about the Bible. This particular person is a Muslim but, like, fuck- Fuck everyone. Fuck their religion, fuck their opinions about, like, who we are and what we deserve, and fuck this guy. He and Pat Robertson should… I don’t know, bone, or something. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Wow, fuck everyone this episode, so far.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, the weirdest thing to me is “LGBT people should not be considered a minority.” I know that was the least shitty thing [Mike laughs] of all the things he said but, like, that’s just statistics, baby. Like, that’s just looking at the numbers. There- You can’t- You can’t decide what is a minority, because numbers exist. Like- I mean, maybe that’s why it’s standing out, is because truth does not matter, and it hasn’t since Trump. Trump emboldened people to be out about their, um, being shitty people. And I think that’s continued to snowball, in a not hot way, to make people be- feel emboldened this year, because of the far right, emboldened to be extra shitty and vocal about it. You are allowed to spew hateful, horrible things that you used to have to pretend like you didn’t… Like, at least to be decent in public. And you don’t have to anymore. There are no repercussions for being a shitty, horrible person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yep. Yep. And I-
KYLE GETZ
And it’s fueling domestic terrorism.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that’s the thing. I was just gonna ask you if you have any sort of reservations about going to any private events this year, because, like, people have guns in this fuckin’ country.
KYLE GETZ
I have plenty of anxiety and I have plenty of social anxiety, but that’s not my, like, anxiety. I think, partially because I can’t- It’s just- Like, I can’t add that to the list of things I’m worried about, or I would be frozen in fear all of the time. I think there’s part of me that just tucks it away and doesn’t think about it, and part of me that knows: if someone’s gonna bring a gun, they could very well bring a gun to the bus stop that I’m standing at.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, sure.
KYLE GETZ
They could- You know? Like, that’s- In this country there’s always some kind of risk that someone’s going to bring a gun somewhere and do something horrifying, because that happens all the time here.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So I think I’ve just… washed that from my mind, and… for better or for worse, I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So no, I don’t think I have that anxiety. Do you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, no, I don’t know. Or, if I do, I decide to do it anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the thing. I’ll end this new segment with just the first news item, just by saying: if your fear of potential danger to your person prevents you from going to something, I think that’s okay.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s okay to listen to that. It’s okay. And, if you could bring yourself to do it anyway, I think that there’s- that we need as many people to do that as possible.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That, like, if you stay home, in a way, they win. So show up louder and gayer than ever… again, if you can. And if you can’t, that’s fine.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, news the second: students at Carroll High School in Fort Wayne, Indiana were planning to put on Adam Szymkowicz’s Marian, Or the True Tale of Robin Hood, which is a queer version of Sherwood Forest and its merry group of thieves. Some parents complained to the school district and said that portraying homosexuality on stage was sinful, so the school leadership informed the theater troupe that “safety concerns” prevented them from performing the play, and shut it down. Students were shocked, so they did it anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Niiice.
MIKE JOHNSON
Speaking of doing it anyway. So they contacted local media and others, including a playwright, for support. A lot of this is because of 18-year-old Tristan Wasserman. And, uh, they got $85,000 raised through a GoFundMe account. They secured a professional venue, professional services, and did the play anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Wow! That’s amazing. God, I’m like… “Am I going to cook dinner tonight, or order food?” [Mike laughs] Like, my- The amount of work that went into combating that hateful thing is very impressive to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Kids are gonna save the world, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a lot of pressure that we put on them, to be like “Sorry everything’s broken. Do you have the tape?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We certainly don’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
But that’s awesome that they did that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, that was that was May the 20th that they did it. It was at Foellinger Theatre. Indiana State Police and Indiana State Parks personnel were on hand to help out with security. And, um, they only had about 40 hours to rehearse it because they had advanced placement tests and finals during that period of time.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but I just think it’s- I just think it’s magical.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, just… Forgiveness versus permission, y’all. Do it anyway.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fuckin’ great. News the last: a new documentary called “Art and Pep” has been released. Uh… what’s the- What is it on? I think it’s on Netflix. …Peacock. It’s on Peacock. Thank you. Art and Pip, a new documentary on peacock that documents the story of Art Johnston and José Pepe Peña, also known as “Art” and “Pep”, and their roles as LGBTQ rights trailblazers. Among other things though, they are the owners of the Sidetrack bar in Chicago, which is where we’re going to be doing our show. So, if you want to familiarize yourself with where we’re going to be doing our show, but also the fucking amazing story of the two dudes that founded it, go check that documentary out. I haven’t seen it yet; I totally plan to. Lots of people have been like “Please watch this.” But they’ve been together for 45 years and they have used Sidetrack as a hub for political activism in Chicago. And they said, for instance, quote, “bars were the center of any activism. We didn’t have churches…we didn’t have places to meet, so the bars were the natural place,” “I saw the harassment and I saw the way we were treated, and that sort of made a big difference in how I look at things and what things needed to be changed.” And it’s just- It’s really, really interesting to me that they are, like, on the frontlines of the HIV/AIDS epidemic and using that platform and that venue as a place to do advocacy, and education, and, um, treatment awareness. And then every, like, local political thing that has to do with LGBTQ rights in Chicago, that’s been like the headquarters of it. And, anyway, I’m just- I’m super stoked to see the documentary. They’re a-goddamn-dorable [Kyle chuckles] and we’re gonna go be in their backyard soon.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And we’re gonna go there and get up on stage and be like “Hey. Isn’t it funny when guys fuck each other?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like- You know? [both chuckle] These trailblazing icons, and we’re gonna be like “Hey, you know what’s funny? Shittin’ on people’s graves.”
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Dicks and butts! [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Dick and butts, y’all. Dicks and butts.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, go see the documentary on Peacock and let me know what you think.
KYLE GETZ
Our documentary is gonna be called “Dicks and Butts”. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
You can be Dicks, I’ll be Butts. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. That… probably checks out. That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news! Uh, speaking of butts, I want to thank the following assholes. [Mike laughs] Thank you to our patr- [chuckles] Thank you to-
MIKE JOHNSON
So many Patreon supporters at our live show.
KYLE GETZ
So many Patreon supporters, yeah. Patreon, like, that’s where it’s at.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s, I think, more than half the crowd, I think.
KYLE GETZ
It seemed like it, based on the audience reaction. But I want to thank… I’m gonna go ahead and say these are initials, Tja.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tja?
KYLE GETZ
Because otherwise your name is “tuh-HAA”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tuh-JAA.
KYLE GETZ
Um… Jeffery Ishmael, Tom… hmm… Moyeralago- Moryala- …Mor-
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Nailed it.
KYLE GETZ
Mayoralgo. [TN: Tom Mayoralgo] That wasn’t actually that hard, I just got lost in the weeds. Um… Martin Andrew, jayson salomon. Thank you so much for-
MIKE JOHNSON
We signed his nipples! I know that bitch.
KYLE GETZ
We signed his nipples, yep, at the live show. [Mike laughs] Hey, if you want us to sign your nipples… I mean, there was a T-shirt between us, and the pen, and nipples, but-
MIKE JOHNSON
Details, Kyle. They don’t know. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Um, but if you want to get bonus content, episodes, video… ads a day early- Nope. No ads. And episodes a day early, and just support us and what we do, go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast. I’m doing so bad this time.
MIKE JOHNSON
And half off of live show tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Half off of live show tickets!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Do it. …Do you wanna talk about the Bible?
KYLE GETZ
I guess so.
MIKE JOHNSON
I know you are, like- Are you nervous about this episode at all?
KYLE GETZ
No. No, no, no, not at all.
MIKE JOHNSON
No?
KYLE GETZ
Wait, why did you say that? Why did you think I’d be nervous?
MIKE JOHNSON
I just think that, like… Okay, my perception – maybe this isn’t your perception at all – my perception is that people are far more protective of the Bible than they are their religion or their particular sect of Christianity. That, like, it’s not okay to shit on the Bible.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
You can shit on the Catholic Church… Don’t shit on the Bible. And I’m so- I’m afraid that there will be a lot of shitting on the Bible-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-despite having Joseph Peters-Mathews, our favorite gay priest, is gonna be here to talk about the Bible. But I think we’re probably gonna have a lot of critical things to say, and I’m a little bit worried that, like, people will have a stronger reaction to that than they might to our general distaste for religion on this show.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. It’s definitely- Like, it’s sacred, so we’re gonna- It- This is like drawing Muhammad. Like, this is like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-doing something that you’re absolutely not supposed to do… and I don’t really care-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
-because I don’t- because your Bible isn’t sacred to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, if it’s sacred to you, awesome. If you get- And especially if LGBT people get some kind of power, and strength, and hope, and happiness, and joy, and love from the Bible, that’s awesome. I’m so glad, because I want people to find their happiness, and I think queer joy is part of resistance, and especially this year if you can find a way to be happy, enjoy your life, celebrate yourself and who you are… If that comes from the Bible… One, I’m surprised, but two, fuckin’ go for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
You know? It’s just- So I think the criti- Like, it’s not holy to me. It doesn’t matter to me. It’s a book to me. People wrote it. We criticize lots of books for lots of different things. I’d say, like, “1/5 stars, would not recommend.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I don’t- I don’t care.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, chapter two is very boring, just so you know.
KYLE GETZ
I started reading. It was like “This person begat that person, begat that person, begat that person…” I was like… “Man, this is bad writing. We gotta pick up-” [Mike laughs] “We gotta narratively introduce these characters in different ways than this. We gotta find some different- I- You’re just listing the cast of characters right off the bat. I don’t-”
MIKE JOHNSON
And “So and so lived to be 900 years old.” Like, no. Already, no.
KYLE GETZ
I have… I have questions about this. [Mike laughs] Then again, Lord of the Rings, I think the elves live to be 900, so… it’s a- Maybe it’s a-
MIKE JOHNSON
Methuselah was an elf. I think that’s-
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Maybe this is a wonderful fantasy novel that I just- [Mike chuckles] I’ve just put it in the wrong frame of mind when I’ve tried to read it.
MIKE JOHNSON
You have tried to read it though.
KYLE GETZ
Someone handed me one of those little tiny pocket Bibles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
And, like, I literally, like, tried to read the first page and I was like “This is dumb.” I just wanted to know all the- what all the fuss was about.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Have you? What’s your level of-
MIKE JOHNSON
I used to- I used to be- Like, I used to go to Bible study.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
I used to- Like, I tried reading the whole thing and, like a lot of people, like you just mentioned, I got fuckin’ lost in Leviticus, and I’m like “No, fuck this. I’m done,” [Kyle chuckles] “I’m done reading about shrimp rules or whatever.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] The Bible: Shrimp Rules. [both laugh] That’s the chapter of Leviticus.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, I know quite a bit, and enough to maybe be dangerous. And- But, like, obviously, also not a theologian. I’m not a fuckin’ priest, which is why I’m excited that Joseph is gonna be here. And he listens to the show. He knows what he’s walking into.
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
So I’m pretty sure we can, like, not pull any punches, and have a good conversation with him.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate him as a person and what he does, in spite of what we say and do about religion. And I don’t know what the right approach is, but he’s working from the inside to try to change things and preach what I believe is a more loving, happy, accepting version of the Bible than I think some other Christians know or believe.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. Um, is there anything you specifically want to ask him?
KYLE GETZ
Ummmm… n- Now I want to know what the shrimp rules are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
If he could really outline shrimp rules for me, I think I’d be interested in that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m pretty sure that the shrimp rules are just “Don’t.”
KYLE GETZ
No? “No,” to shrimp?
MIKE JOHNSON
“No,” to shrimp.
KYLE GETZ
Well that’s a- That was an easy chapter. Next one. Matthew.
MIKE JOHNSON
Bacon. There’s also bacon rules.
KYLE GETZ
Bacon rules?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Bacon rules.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also “No.”
KYLE GETZ
Aw.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Sorry.
KYLE GETZ
Man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Although, I’ve never met a Jew that doesn’t love bacon, so, like, I just- but they’re not supposed to.
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] …is that racist? I can’t tell.
MIKE JOHNSON
No!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s- Is this like on 30 Rock with the whole “You can’t say ‘Puerto Rican’”? [both chuckle] Like, that’s what they’re called, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
No! Stereotyping all of them as liking bacon.
MIKE JOHNSON
I said- I limited it to my experience. I’ve never met a Jew that didn’t love bacon.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. Okay. Hey, Jews, [Mike chuckles] do you fucking hate bacon?
MIKE JOHNSON
If you’re a bacon-hating Jew, contact me. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Contact Mike. Let them know that you do exist and you will be seen.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh God.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, this is dangerous.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break before we, like…
KYLE GETZ
Keep talking?
MIKE JOHNSON
…get cancelled. [both chuckle] You wanna take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
MIKE JOHNSON
…I’ll pray for you. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Please don’t.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back.
KYLE GETZ
We’re- …I almost said “We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, I mean, eventually we’ll get there. [chuckles] We’re here with the Reverend Father…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“The Reverend”.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Joseph Peters-Mathews.
KYLE GETZ
Well-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Or “Father”.
KYLE GETZ
And “Father”!
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And father two- multiple ways. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“Reverend” just usually doesn’t go with “Father”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. Well, it does here.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our house, our rules. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
This is our religion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, welcome back to the show.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
We have a whole style guide about how to address different kinds of clergy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So. It’s good to be back though.
MIKE JOHNSON
Am I giving you an inadvertent promotion by saying “Reverend Father”?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No, no, no. If you called me “the Very Reverend”, that would be the promotion.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, the Very Reverend Joseph Peters-Mathews. [Kyle chuckles] So, we’re gonna- We’re gonna talk about the Bible and stuff, and do, like, a personal check in, but first, I do- I want people to know, in case they haven’t heard the other episodes that you’ve been on… because this is like number four, number five… something like that…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Something like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
…uh, you are a gay, married, Episcopal priest, father of two.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes, all of those things.
MIKE JOHNSON
All of those things.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, like, when we talk about, like, “Hey, let’s talk about the Bible,” like, you know your shit. Like, this is what you do for a living.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It is what I do for a living. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I do have a master’s in divinity. So I had four semesters of Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. That’s more than everyone else combined that, I think, I know in my life.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but yeah. First, personal stuff. So, last time, you and your husband were on, and your first child, and you had a second child on the way.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes we did, and he is 1 now. His name is “Finny” and he’s very fat and happy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
We thought that Topher was an easy baby, and then we had Finny and realized how much easier he is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, Topher’s now 3. An absolute threenager, [Kyle chuckles] and it is much worse than 2.
MIKE JOHNSON
Much worse than two?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But they call it “the terrible twos”.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And “the trying threes”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ohh. Does 4… Is there some relief coming at 4? Is it like “the fun-”
MIKE JOHNSON
“The fucked up four”? [laughs]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Closest what people say there, mhm. No, not really.
KYLE GETZ
And “five” starts with an F too, so you’re not gonna to get out of it by then.
KYLE GETZ
5 they go to kindergarten though.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, it’s somebody else’s problem. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, you have a place to-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s somebody else’s problem, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Topher’s good. He’s smart, he’s learning new things every day. He just got a twin size bed, which, he has been in a toddler bed which is the same size as a crib mattress and, like, I forgot how much bigger twin beds are than crib mattresses until I was trying to bring a twin mattress home from Costco and had to fold it to get it to fit in the car with children in car seats.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Oh man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like a taco?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, we did not fold it like a taco. We just, like, folded the back end of it and then closed the door.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s how I deal with my closets, so it’s fine. Like, just shove it in there and close the door. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
And, what’s it like having two now? Like, that seems like it’s more than just double the work.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, it is more- Definitely more than double the work, because nothing is static. Like, every day there is something new with Topher and with Finny. So, like, Finn has two molars now that he didn’t two weeks ago, but he’s still waiting for two. And Topher’s language really started to explode around his third birthday. He started going to a preschool two days a week. It’s funny to hear him talk, because he knows, like, time-associated words but doesn’t know what they mean. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So he’ll say “Last year, we went to [fill in the blank]” but that could be yesterday, or that can be last week or last month. Or if he wants to do something more, he’ll say “I need 2 minute-th,” and that could be 2 minutes or it could be 45 minutes that he wants to keep doing whatever. So it’s funny, except when you really need to know what he’s actually trying to say, [Mike and Kyle chuckle] because the words have meanings, and he doesn’t really know them all the time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But what makes things hard is that they can talk- he can talk back now. [Kyle chuckles] And not like sassy back talking. There’s a little of that. There’s just, like, constant talking and asking questions, and a lot of it is just trying to understand. Like, he’s not being a jerk when he asks, “Why?” lots of times.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But sometimes I just want to close the car door and leave. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And not answer, like, “Why did you put my sunglasses in my cup holder?” I’m like… “So that you can reach them, because, in this car, I cannot reach the floor of the backseat while I’m driving.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And in three minutes you’re gonna be in the sun, screaming that you want your sunglasses.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Are there any more kids on the way?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Um, no. There are not right now.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay. Keep us updated on your fam. [Mike chuckles] Do you want to talk about the Bible now?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about the Bible.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Okay, let’s just start-
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, did we make- Is it a nervous face?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t know what I’ll be able to answer or not answer, so I’ll do my best and I’ll tell you if I’m making something up-
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
-and have further reading suggestions. [Mike and Joseph chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
Is it gonna be the Bible?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s not okay.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay. Okay, okay, okay. [Mike chuckles] Phew. I just want to start by understanding. I never grew up any kind of religious, and so I- when I was just thinking about the Bible, like, why is the Bible so important? Why is it the book that everyone talks about, instead of other writings, or other things, or other… I don’t know. Surely there are important books out there as well.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
There are, but if- I mean, in the context of world religions, it’s not uncommon to have some kind of sacred text that is stories, or sayings, or directions for living as a community in some way or another. So, the Christian Bible includes the Hebrew Bible or the “Tanakh”, which is also known as the “Old Testament” that is still acknowledged and used by observant Jewish people today. Islam has the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita is very important in Hinduism. So, the Bible is Christianity’s sacred scriptures, and it is the stories of the Hebrew people in the Hebrew Scriptures and then a random prophet who had people following him around, that Christianity professes was crucified by the Roman state and rose from the dead three days later. So that’s in the four Gospels, and then-
MIKE JOHNSON
Jesus. That’s Jesus. You’re talking about Jesus. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s Jesus, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Jesus.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then there’s a little bit of history about the early church in Acts, and then most of the New Testament is Paul writing to churches – a miraculous conversion experience, never met Jesus – and then just, like, sends out letters. And so you’re getting one side of a conversation that the church thought was important to maintain from- It’s to remember how things were done, so that things would not be forgotten.
KYLE GETZ
So these are things that people wrote that, somewhere along the way, people were like “This is important for everyone to remember.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
“This is important for people to know about.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yes. Mhm. Yeah, and there were- I don’t remember the exact date that the canon was closed. The canon is the authorized list of books in the Bible, but there are certain pieces- I mean, we have documents about texts that almost made it into the Bible and didn’t. The understanding, within most of Christianity, is that the Bible is divinely inspired. What that means means different things to different traditions. Some traditions will maintain that God dictated every word in the Bible, or that, like, God took possession of Paul and, like… [scribbling sounds]
MIKE JOHNSON
Made his hand move? [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
…made his hand move like it was a channeling experience. That is not our understanding in the Episcopal Church. Uh, that “inspired” is simply “inspired”, and that God had a role in what was being written by particular people, to particular people, at a particular time.
KYLE GETZ
So if you write something like real rad… like, I’m not talking just, like, good, I’m talking like incredible…
KYLE GETZ
Like Joseph Smith good. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
…could you-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That would be a new religion if- either a new religion, or people would just study it. Because there are, like, really good things that people read but that are not part of the Christian scripture.
KYLE GETZ
I’m fine for you to get into the Bible, I’m just saying. [Mike chuckles] I think you’re a good writer, and I think you could make the Bible right.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh, thank you. I don’t think I can. Uh, but I-
KYLE GETZ
Not according to the petition that I started. Everyone, go to gofundme.com/josephpetersmathews.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Am I getting the money from that GoFundMe?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know why I said “GoFundMe”, because I couldn’t think of the-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Or there’s a change.org petition.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, ‘cause I couldn’t think of the name “change.org”.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, when I was growing up, we were Catholic, had a big, big Catholic family Bible. And there are, like, books in there that are not in the NIV or-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah! That’s a part of the Reformation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, a part of that is, as-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, one of them was, like, “Habakkuk” or something.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Habakkuk is in the NIV-
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
-but First and Second Esdras are not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, the Wisdom of Solomon is not. Ecclesiasticus is not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, the Hebrew Bible canon – the Old Testament – was not fully closed as Christian scriptures were being written. So, these books, this is called the “Deuterocanonical” text, so the “second canon”, sometimes called the “Apocrypha”, that has been moved away from in academic and religious language because “apocrypha” implies apocryphal, some kind of secret or hidden, which is not supposed to- that’s not the perspective. So, those were written, counsels of rabbis decided that those were not going to be in the Hebrew scriptures, and early Christians were still looking to them. They were in the canon, but then, through the Reformation, they were removed from most Protestant canons. So, Catholics still acknowledge them. In the Episcopal Church, our understanding is that they can be helpful for use, but are not necessary to understand God’s message.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. So- And one of the reasons they wound up being excluded in the Reformation is because they did not make it into the Hebrew canon when the Hebrew canon was closed. So it was looking at “Judaism did not keep these, so we will not keep these either. We will just keep the ones they kept, and our books.”
MIKE JOHNSON
That sounds so messy, Joseph. Like, I don’t understand the whole, like… I don’t know. How can you get away from the idea that, like, this is a bunch of dudes sitting around and deciding, like, “What’s in? What’s out? Do we like it or not? How do we-”?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I mean, have you heard of our government? [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Well- [chuckles] Okay. Okay. Okay. Our government doesn’t proclaim to speak for God, though.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s true! And that’s an important thing. Not- I mean, for multiple reasons. The government should not claim to speak for God.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’ll see! 2024, everybody, go vote! [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But I think- I think it’s important to think about… I’m gonna read this quote from Peter Enns, who wrote a book called “The Bible Tells Me So”. He is a biblical scholar, and one of the things he says is “Many Christians have been taught that the Bible is Truth downloaded from heaven, God’s rulebook, a heavenly instructional manual—follow the directions and out pops a true believer; deviate from the script and God will come crashing down on you with full force,” but that’s not historically how the Bible has been understood. So, these dudes aren’t necessarily even thinking of themselves as speaking for God, in as much as trying to figure out how best to lead people who are following the same God as they are, in a most faithful following. And then it gets into some circular logic potentially, that is not logical, because it’s circular. Um, but it’s not… It’s people coming together, and there’s an acknowledgment that it’s people. So only the most naïve think that conclave, where a new pope is elected, doesn’t have some politicking involved.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And, politicking can be part of discernment. Like, people who wrestle with faith and, like, actively engage it can understand that that doesn’t mean that God is not present or acting, it’s just that people are involved too, so you have to figure out, like, “What is the best decision going to be?”
MIKE JOHNSON
So, let’s talk about the Bible and queer marriage, then.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right? Like, what- Is there- Is there a biblical foundation for saying that gay people shouldn’t be married?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Or that- And there’s not one for saying that they should, either.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because the Bible is… it’s collection of stories of people trying to get through, and if we understand the Bible, as the Episcopal Church does, as contemporary scholarship does, that it’s not this rulebook like I just quoted and was talking-
MIKE JOHNSON
There are shrimp rules. We talked about that before you got here.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
[chuckles] There are shrimp rules.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Pork rules and polycotton blend rules…
KYLE GETZ
What are- What are the shrimp rules?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Don’t eat shrimp in the desert, because it can kill you.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] I mean-
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t know that I needed that advice.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s sound advice.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So, the short version of the purity code found in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly in the first five books of the Bible, is kind of public health measures and how to keep what is really a small tribe of people who keep being conquered and taken over, alive, and to help them keep their identity as who they are. So commandments about worshipping God, saying the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord is one, the Lord is God”, that there is one God. So don’t go marrying people who believe in lots of different gods, because then you lose your understanding of who you are. The rules about- The dietary rules are things that make sense from a public health perspective in 2000 Before the Common Era, for a small group of people in the desert, like “Don’t eat shellfish,” because shellfish goes bad really easily. “Don’t eat pork,” because pork is really dangerous unless it’s really well cooked. So there’s not necessarily something inherently bad or evil about these other pieces, but there are rules for keeping people alive. So the [sighs] prescription against same-sex activity in Deuteronomy kind of has the same objective. Children don’t result from gay sex, and if you’re trying to keep a tribe together, and alive, and growing, you need to have sex in a way that creates children, and gay sex doesn’t.
KYLE GETZ
So, in that context, did they actually say “Don’t have…” like, “…same-sex relations?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. Yeah. There’s Deuteronomy 18:22, [TN: Leviticus 18:22] it’s like “Man shall not lie with man.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. So there is- I mean, there’s a-
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s not like a mistranslation or a misunderstanding.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No, those are just the words. And, if you take the Bible at face value, at its words as just they are, then there’s lots of problems with how we do everything in life today.
MIKE JOHNSON
There are some people out there – like, is Boswell one of them? – that would say that that’s not actually what that meant, that that was not a prohibition against gay sex, that that’s a mistranslation, misunderstanding, a oversimplification, a overreach of authority or something, but then there are those – and it sounds like you’re one of them – who are like “Nah, it says ‘Don’t have gay sex,’ but…” Dot, dot, dot, right?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that- Is it Boswell who wrote Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Okay. He deals more with the New Testament, and his writings-
MIKE JOHNSON
I just said “Yes,” without actually knowing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
But, like, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
That’s so confident though.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s who I thought I was referencing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So yeah. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Um, he- And I really like his book, but he is dealing more with writings of… writings in the New Testament and Paul. So- And what we do- It’s not so much a mistranslation, but it is a misapplication, and kind of that that Paul is writing about a couple of things happening, including temple prostitution of men and women, but also just the Roman system of having catamites in a way that is abusive.
KYLE GETZ
What’s a catamite?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
A catamite is if, like, you or Mike has, like, a teenage boy who is like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Is “just a hole, sir.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, kind of. [Mike chuckles] Sort of your apprentice, but also that, um, in addition to Mike having a wife. And then-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
He- That was not meant to be on the nose. [all laugh] Uh, but then he ages out and perpetuates the cycle of abuse. [chuckles] Um, and that’s a cycle of abuse. So, I think Boswell would- I haven’t read that text in a while, but an understanding would be that what Paul is more writing about is not being in right relationship, and abusive relationships. There was not a concept of same-sex marriage in the cis hetero patriarchal society of the 1st century. It just wasn’t a thing. But, as Boswell documents, or whoever wrote Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe-
MIKE JOHNSON
It is. It is him.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
-there came to be rituals within the church for committing people to life together – men together, women together, men and women – that weren’t necessarily sexual, but that might have been. And there’s- One of the rites ceremonies is the making of friends, but it’s super-duper gay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. [all chuckle] Okay. Okay. I guess we- We have to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, right?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure, we can! Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that- Is that about not having gay sex, or not?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Absolutely not.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Absolutely not. I mean, even the Bible itself says it’s not. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Like, even the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures, say that the sin of Sodom is not sodomy, it is inhospitality. So, God sends visitors to Lot and, I mean, the story itself is not great. Like, the locals want to- There’s new men visiting, they’re angels, and then the locals want to “know them”, uh, to rape them.
MIKE JOHNSON
I told you, Kyle!
KYLE GETZ
You did. Well, you said “sex”, but yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I said- Yeah, I said “The verb ‘to know’ means ‘to bang’.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then Lot sends his daughter out instead, because he knows that these are messengers from God. So, not great.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then- But the destruction is not about “Oh, we tried to bang angels,” it’s about showing inhospitality to visitors on consistent level. And there have been warnings and trials. One of the things that Enns talks about in his book, The Bible Tells Me So, really well is that, as the stories are recorded, not just modern readers – like, historical readings – have an understanding that they’re not necessarily written as history books the way history has done since the Enlightenment, that there is a different kind of historiography going on, which we studied in my history degree. So, one of the things Enns says toward the end of the book is that God being written about as an angry warrior throwing destruction everywhere doesn’t necessarily mean that God was an angry warrior throwing destruction everywhere, it’s how the people who were encountering God experienced and remembered God, and one of the things Enns does is compare what the texts record too, just, like, the archaeological record. So, there’s just- There are massive destructions that are supposed to have taken place that there’s no documentation of. And so what you could do with that is you can say “Oh, the history is wrong,” or you can say “God hid it.” [Mike chuckles] I had a friend in college whose grandmother thought that dinosaur bones were temptations from the devil.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because dinosaurs aren’t mentioned in the Bible.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, birds aren’t real. It’s fine. [Joseph and Kyle chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
They’re all spy cameras. Um, or you can say “These people weren’t writing history, they were writing a story,” and that, somehow or another, they triumphed, and so they recorded that triumph by saying “God threw hellfire and brimstone and obliterated this city.” But there’s no, like, giant Brimstone deposits where that place should be.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah, yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So it’s more about how to perpetuate the myth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hm, hm, hm.
KYLE GETZ
What myth?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Any of the myths in the Hebrew scriptures, starting with the creation myth.
KYLE GETZ
Like- Oh. It’s interesting, because you’re talking about, like, all the context that comes along with any particular line or story, and I feel like, when they’re used against people, they don’t come along with this nuance that you’re describing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Right, and that’s one of the problems with what has happened in American- starting in American history and American Christianity, is just the creation and rise of fundamentalism, which was a reaction to early 20th century liberalism, that stemmed from studies and literature and just completely demythologizing all of the text. So you’ve got academics saying “All of this is a myth, so it doesn’t matter,” or saying “Those miracles couldn’t have happened because God doesn’t do miracles,” like “There are natural laws.” And so, in response, you get people who just want that old time religion, who’ve never dealt with nuance, and now everything they believe is being questioned so they sharply respond. And then their descendants, intellectual descendants if not genealogical, are the ones who show up at Pride with signs.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because there’s just a rejection of nuance and critical thought.
MIKE JOHNSON
This phenomenon that you’re talking about now suddenly reminds me of the backlash against trans.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like the idea that trans people exist, are real, like, are a force to be reckoned with, the backlash against that is just from this, like, being afraid that the world makes less sense now.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But let’s go back to the assholes with signs.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, “the world makes less sense” is a great way to put it. Because it’s easier for some people to just think… [chuckles] I’m trying to remember the bumper sticker. Something that effect of “Oh, it’s- God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” And, like, pro tip: don’t get your theology from bumper stickers. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] If you believe in the God of the universe, however you understand that, more likely than not, they cannot be contained in the words of a bumper sticker. Uh, so some nuance is going to be necessary.
KYLE GETZ
But aren’t some people getting this message from people in your position, from pastors, from leaders, from the church itself?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Absolutely. In other traditions more so than mine, yeah. Yeah. Uh, who may or may not have studied to learn the nuance and history that I’ve been sharing. So, I read this book, The Bible Tells Me So, a few years ago… I had checked it out from the library on Kindle and then I bought it, but because it was a library book I didn’t do any highlighting. I was hoping to, like, come with a notebook full of quotes. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Uh, and I was like “I’m not rereading this book between Thursday and today.” [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We don’t do that much prep, you shouldn’t either.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But one of the things he talks about is that he went to college and graduated from a Christian school and realized that he didn’t know really anything about this faith he claimed to have, so he went to seminary to actually learn it and then he did a PhD in Biblical studies at Harvard. And he talks about them as three turning points and, like, having to figure out. And he wound up losing his job at the seminary where he had gone, because he just couldn’t not have the nuance, and people wanted a simplified version. But God is too complex, and understanding Christian stories, let alone beliefs, are too complex to just boil down to “God’s said it, the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.”
KYLE GETZ
I mean, existing- To me, it seems like a challenging spot you’re in, existing in a world where so many people are using their positions of power against someone like you yourself.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
How do you survive in that world, or what do you do in that world to keep the faith?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Well, I- I found a faith that would have me, for one, and that’s kind of been a discussion a little bit on Twitter in my circles this week, is that you don’t have to stay in a church or seminary that hates you. [chuckles] There are alternatives. And that was its own, like, thing for me, because I grew up Baptist in Alabama, and then I spent some time in the United Methodist Church, and I joined to the Episcopal Church in college. Queerness was not the most important thing to that conversion, but it was a part of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And knowing- I mean, so, I was confirmed in 2008. Gene Robinson had been the openly gay bishop of New Hampshire for 5 years by that point.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, I know that guy. I know the bitch. [all chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And even when he was ordained bishop, like, he had a bulletproof vest under his vestments and there were protesters outside talking about how “God hates fags,” “God hates the Episcopal Church.” So the way I deal with it is not dealing with assholes, if I can help it. [Kyle and Mike chuckle] Um, just not. It’s been a really hard learning, but a good one, that I don’t have to give bad faith actors any time. [laughs] Like, we sent out some postcards at my church to invite people to a cookout two weeks ago, and someone called the Thursday before and they said they had some questions about it and I’m like “That sounds great! What’s- What’s goin’ on?” and he said “Well, I wanna know why you have the symbol for a terrorist organization on the back of your postcard.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And I was like “I’m sorry?” and he said “Yeah, this Black Lives Matter logo,” [Kyle gasps slightly] and I said “We’ll pray for you, sir. Have a good day,” and hung up. [Mike chuckles] Like- And he called back like 15 times, and I answered one of those times and then I spent 45 minutes on the phone with the phone company to block unknown numbers, [chuckles] because I don’t owe him time. Like, he is not paying me to be at church, my church people are, and there’s work to do. And clearly, if that’s your starting point, you’re not interested in a conversation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Like, you just want to scream at me, and I got other things to do. So, when people are wanting to talk about God and the gay, if they are interested in a conversation, I can usually tell if it’s good faith interaction or not. And, like, I spend time doing that. And if they’re just, like, trying to “Gotcha!” me, I don’t have time. Like, I have two children under the age of 4, and a church, and a husband, and a social life. So that’s how I keep the faith, is by being among people of faith who support me in all of me. Yeah, and knowing what I know, both from academic training and my own experience.
KYLE GETZ
I think the downside is- That it totally makes sense for your personal life, to get through day to day and be able to live. I think we also though- Many- Like, you nor I, nor many of us, even though I’m not religious, have the luxury of not dealing with it, because the Bible then gets used in political contexts to make laws to start movements against us. So there is part of it- I’m not able to hang up the phone on that part of it.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
That’s frustrating.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, I bet. [Kyle chuckles] It’s frustrating for me! Yeah, because even people- Fundamentalists or self-proclaimed literalist, like, aren’t. They accuse queer folk and queer Christians of picking and choosing what to believe, but they do the same thing whether they realize it or not, and it’s an awareness of that confirmation bias that sometimes I can point out and sometimes I can’t. So, my go-to is in John 6. So, a part of the Reformation is rejecting the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. And so, extreme Protestant types say that communion is “just a symbol”, that nothing happens, but they also say that they’re literalists and, in John 6, like, Jesus is very clear. It’s not even like in the Synoptics where he’s with his friends the night before he dies and says “Take, eat: this is my body.” He’s much more explicit, saying “I’m the bread of life, those who eat my flesh and drink of my blood will not die.” And it’s not- There’s no metaphorical reading there, because the Greek verb for “eat” there is the same word that’s talking about “chewing on”. This isn’t like “Those who eat of me, who understand my teachings, consuming me that way…” Like, no, this is about eating, bro. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
They’re not interested in literalism about that. So, I- And it catches them off guard that I know that too, like, because I grew up in that worldview. And I know the Bible, not as well as some people, but better than a lot of people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I would hope better than most people. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I’m also really good at finding commentaries. Like, look for someone smarter and use their words.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, we were talking about bad faith actors just a little bit ago. I’m interested in figuring out if this is a bad faith actor, and then I have a question for you. So, in 2022, Utah passed a law that banned books containing, quote, “pornographic or indecent material” from the public libraries of K-12 schools. And then someone – an anonymous person – wrote a formal complaint saying that the Bible meets that criteria for prohibition in libraries. And then the Davis School District in Utah reviewed the Bible under that law and found that, yes, it’s inappropriate for kids under high school age. First, is that- Was that person acting on bad faith?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t think so; I think they were responding to bad faith laws.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay. That’s- Okay, I hadn’t-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So they’re working within the parameters of what has been set up, and sucks for you-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s what the Church of Satan does, right?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, sucks for you, LDS folk, Christians who got this law through, but, like, these are your standards. Here we go.
MIKE JOHNSON
So then- But the question that I want to have a discussion about here is: is the Bible appropriate for kids?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I think it’s context. I think… What is appropriate? Is-
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t have kids. You’re the one with kids, yo. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah. So- I mean, what we read to Topher is a children’s Bible, because a lot of the Bible is stories, sometimes of miracles, and some of those are horrible things if you just read them as they are. So, there are coffee mugs that some of my colleagues have that have, like, an ark with a rainbow from Noah’s Ark. But it’s like, Noah’s Ark is not a children’s story, because it’s about God destroying all of humanity and creation except for Noah and his family. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
But had a lovely sailing adventure. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Everyone went fishing… No animals ate each other on the boat… They’re all friends…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And there’s a… I think now she’s a seminary professor, whose career was dedicated to what she called “The Texts of Terror”, and that’s one of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Abraham being about to sacrifice Isaac, his son, is another.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
These are stories that I grew up with. And, like, they never scared me, because of how I was receiving them, which was from people who loved me telling the stories and getting beyond – in some ways potentially bypassing, like, just skipping around – the terror and destruction. But the point of the story is not so much “Everyone was evil so God destroyed everything. Look how powerful God is.” I mean, that’s certainly part of it, “Look how powerful God is,” but as much of it is that God didn’t destroy everyone, that there were people who were saved for following directions, which… could instill some authoritarianism.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, “Just comply…” “…Black Lives Matter” “…everybody.” Yeah. Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But the point is that there was salvation, particularly when you look at the archaeological record and there was no global flood about the time this was written. And that’s what a lot of the stories in the Hebrew scriptures are, is, like, something happens but God comes through. God does not abandon the Hebrew people. So, I mean, is the Bible inappropriate for children? Is- And I’m not meaning this is a kind of “Gotcha!” I think it’s the same standard of “How much of Greek and Roman mythology are appropriate for children?” in the same vein.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So if we think about how much raping Zeus does and, like, all the forms he takes… [chuckles] to rape people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or, like, Oedipus scooping his own eyeballs out because he accidentally banged his mom. That’s, like, you know-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
-maybe not for a four year old. [chuckles]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So yeah, I mean, I think that certain parts of the Bible are more maybe kid-friendly. And, by the time a child is checking a Bible out from the library, like, they’re probably able to read whatever is available to them. Like, when I think about my elementary school library, we did not have a King James Version of the Bible. We might have had some Bible stories or a condensed version, something more age-appropriate to an elementary school. As opposed to… my middle school, like, had copies of the Bible right beside other world mythologies. Like, that- And that’s when people get- think they’re being clever when they move the Bible into the fiction section, but the Bible is classified as nonfiction per the Dewey Decimal System, not because it is fact, but because it is a cultural piece of mythology.
KYLE GETZ
I remember, when I was a kid, my friends told me about the apocalypse. Like, that was the one thing that I knew from the Bible. They were like “There’s this guy-” It was at a sleepover, and my two friends who were religious were like “The apocalypse, there’s gonna be fire, it’s really terrifying.”
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“So you need to get saved and not get left behind.”
MIKE JOHNSON
And “It is imminent!” And fuckin’ Christians have been saying this for 250 years, that, like, “The end is nigh, get your shit straight.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s just- It’s terrifying. It’s spreading terror to vulnerable people.
KYLE GETZ
I think- I think, yeah, part of it. It did for me, that scared the shit out of me to hear that, like, everything’s gonna go up in flames and we’re all gonna burn if we don’t do, like, a certain thing that me and my family were not doing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Ugh. So, the apocalypse is Daniel, and Ezekiel, and the Book of Revelation, right? Like, how do you feel about all of that?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I love the Book of Revelation.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why? Is it because it’s an amazing Prince song?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Because it’s a very dramatic, super-duper dramatic, retelling of the Gospels. So, when you stop trying to- When you follow Jesus’ directions, of “Stop trying to predict when the end is,” and look at what the text says… Again, the story is not about the destruction, it’s about the salvation and God rebuilding everything, in Isaiah, because Isaiah doesn’t deal so much with apocalyptic visions but Isaiah talks about the new Jerusalem, the heavenly cities, portals always being open and everyone coming in, and Revelation is talking about God’s defeat of evil at the cosmic level, in very cosmic language, in the way that the Gospels talk about it at a much more pedestrian level of Jesus, the person, dying and rising from the dead thus defeating death, whereas, in Revelation, it’s the end of time and, like, all evil fully being defeated forever. And this expectation of it being the end is not just the last 250 years, it’s always been the case, like, because Jesus said “I will not be with you, until the end of this generation.” But, by the 2nd century, people are realizing “Okay, we have to figure out what to do,” because Jesus hasn’t come back. And… trying to remember which letter from Paul… I think it’s 1 Thessalonians where the phrase that, like, Republicans often use when they’re trying to implement means testing for social programs… which the data show does not work, like, at all. Just doesn’t work. Feed people. That’s what helps people get jobs, is not starving. So they’ll say that “If you don’t work, you shouldn’t eat,” and they’ll quote the Bible, but you don’t even have to have a degree to, like, look at that in its context. My summary of that whole letter is “Yes, Jesus is coming back, but don’t quit your day job.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Because that’s the problem that Paul was writing to, is this group within the church at Thessalonica who have decided they don’t need to work, because Jesus is coming back, but they’re living in basically a communal society like a commune. So other people are working, other people are feeding them, and they’re like “No, we don’t have to work, because Jesus is coming back,” and Paul’s like “You’re a drain to this group of people who have opted in to this lifestyle. You need to participate.” People who don’t work now are not not working because Jesus is coming back. Like, there is- [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s a very different context. And, you shouldn’t use the Bible to proof text laws about poor people. Like, the Bible is very clear how God feels about the poor, and it’s that God is on their side.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What does the Bible say about things like love and acceptance of people?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Big fan.
KYLE GETZ
Big fan? [chuckles] I mean, that- I feel like we always hear kind of the “Don’t be gay,” or “Don’t lie with man,” or other things, and I feel like we miss some of the other parts of the Bible. I don’t think we hear that as often from people.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Not from people who are making scenes, typically, no. And I think there are some layers to that, and that churches are kind of walking thin lines trying to demonstrate acceptance in some ways. Like the Diocese of Olympia has a presence in the Pride parade here, and there are people within the church – queer people within the church – who push back and say “The church shouldn’t be at Pride,” “The church still needs to be doing its own work in its own house,” and “Let queer people have a space where they’re not dealing with religion, positive or negative experience, positive or negative, because it is traumatic for some people and it can be triggering.” Even if the speech is attempting to be speech of love rather than speech of hate, there are people who just don’t want to hear it and would like an escape from it.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. I haven’t thought about that. Do you think religion should be at Pride?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Huh.
MIKE JOHNSON
A different form of sort of the same question: what would you say to somebody who would tell us in our DMs or hate mail that having a priest on our show is triggering?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Oh… um… I don’t know. I would- I would apologize for whatever- for the hurts they’ve experienced. Um… I think y’all do a pretty good job of making your topics known upfront, like in the name of them, like in the name of the episode, and that it’s worth skipping if you know that that’s going to be your experience. Someone could just not listen. And that’s how a lot of [sighs] safety and avoidance of triggering experiences works anyway. I think that’s why there are content warnings, of, like, “This short story contains an instance of rape,” like, “Skip it if that’s going to be a thing for you. Here’s the upfront. Peace.” So yeah, I mean, I would- If they were talking to me, I would apologize to them. I’d ask what the church had done to hurt them, knowing that I couldn’t probably fix it but that there might not have been anyone in their life who has just listened to them from the church, and say “That was wrong. I’m sorry.” Which is an experience I had not- I had more than once. When I was in seminary in New York, I was a regular at a gay bar in the West Village and, like, multiple guys told me about how a priest had abused them, or their brother, or their cousin. And some of them were just wanting to use me as a verbal punching bag because they had not had that opportunity. And, like… that comes with the job for me, so I took it [chuckles] and apologized. And some of them calmed after the apology, because they’d never heard someone from- still associated with the church not be defensive and not say “That was wrong, it shouldn’t have happened. I’m sorry.” Uh… probably never go back to church, and that’s fine, but that there is space for the church to own its past wrongs, in lots of areas.
MIKE JOHNSON
To sort of get back to Kyle’s question too, I’m curious, are- The Bible gets used, the clobber verses and all of that bullshit-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-to the shit on queer people, and are there any, like, verses or parts of the Bible that are queer-affirming that, like, people can and should turn to?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Not explicitly. I mean, there’s some reading-in that can happen. Arguably, King David married his best friend, Jonathan.
KYLE GETZ
Aww.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Like, they had a kind of commitment service of some sort.
KYLE GETZ
Cute.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
But the Bible is not… written- Its intention is not to be queer-bashing or queer-affirming. So what we can look to is Jesus’ direction to love everyone, and how that is reiterated throughout the New Testament for Christians. We can look at what Jesus does talk about, like Jesus talks a whole lot more about care for the poor than he does sexual ethics at all. And he does talk about marriage some. So… yeah, Paul’s chapter on love, First Corinthians 13, that gets read a lot at weddings, is a great kind of metric or measuring stick to… [sighs] I don’t want to say “hold up in sign holders faces,” because they don’t care. [chuckles] Like, they’re not actually trying to engage.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, but to ask if someone is acting in good faith. Like, ask them if they are being patient, if they are being kind, if they’re being self-seeking or not, because, like, Paul gives a pretty solid working definition of specific components of acting in love that you could measure yourself against and kind of grade yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Hm. My very good friend, Donna Suggarz…
KYLE GETZ
Hi, Donna.
MIKE JOHNSON
…that we play WoW with on Mondays, she said we should talk about hypocrisy in general, but more importantly Proverbs 6:16-19: “There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.” And in that list is not gay shit.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
But in that list is a bunch of stuff that I see a lot of Christians doing.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So make a sign and stand beside them.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s a great idea. Let’s do that. Do you wanna do that, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Hold up a sign that says “Don’t stir up shit.”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
“- The Bible”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
“Feet that rush into wickedness,” or whatever it says.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s what your sign could say. “Your feet are rushing into [whatever],” and then put, “compare-“ “cf.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, in Patreon, we’re gonna talk about some gayta.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I have a little bit of gayta on acceptance of gay people and trans people, that we’ll talk about and break down a little bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome. And, just, do you have a favorite verse? It seems maybe like asking somebody to… I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Pick their favorite child?
MIKE JOHNSON
Pick their favorite child. [Mike and Joseph chuckle] Which is fitting, right? [Mike and Kyle laugh]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t think I have a favorite verse… right now, at this point in life. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I like that. I think your favorites should always be written in pencil.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, okay, did you want to take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Let’s take a break.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Should we all just listen to Kesha?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
No, Padam Padam.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the gay anthem of the summer, apparently.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm. It has been ordained by Reverend Kylie herself.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] There was the conclave of the elder gays. [Kyle and Joseph laugh] “Put the white smoke up the chimney,” declared- …Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, Reverend Holy Father Joseph, tell us, where can people find out more about you and what you’re up to? Tell us all the things.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, people can find out more about me on Sunday mornings at 9:30 a.m. at St. Hilda St. Patrick Episcopal Church in Edmonds. We livestream all of our services as well.
MIKE JOHNSON
You do?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Okay.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Thanks, pandemic. Uh, and thanks, Diocese, for money to be able to do that. So yeah, there’s a livestream on YouTube every week. I’m also on Twitter, “JosephPMathews”. One T in “Mathews”. Same handle at Instagram, “JosephPMathews”. So that’s where I am. Uh, what else?
MIKE JOHNSON
What are you doing for Pride?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t know what I’m doing for Pride. That is weeks away. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It feels like an excuse, but I also understand why I’ve heard it from other parents before. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing tomorrow, other than going to church. Like, anything that is malleable, the plans will change. [Mike and Joseph chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of plans, you should make plans to come out to our tour.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
If you want to see us in Chicago, that’s July 29th at-
MIKE JOHNSON
Hey, wait!
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Buy your Chicago tickets now, because the price goes up in just like three days. So, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, what date?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, so the pre-sale price is good until Friday the 16th. So the day this episode drops you’ve got, like, today and tomorrow to buy cheaper tickets, and then- So save yourself the 8 bucks or whatever it is and buy it now.
KYLE GETZ
Get your tickets by June 16th. Seattle is June 23rd, Chicago is July 29th, San Francisco is August 13th, LA is September 10th, and Houston is October 15th. Come out and see us.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
That’s my birthday.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, happy birthday. Come fly out to Houston for your birthday.
MIKE JOHNSON
Come to Houston! [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I shan’t.
KYLE GETZ
Um, go to gayishpodcast.com/live for all of that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Speaking of which, gayishpodcast.com is our website.
KYLE GETZ
We are on socials @gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474…
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Standard rates apply.
MIKE JOHNSON
Exactly right. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s do our Gayest & Straightest. Uh, I will go first. The gayest thing about me this week: I may or may not be dating and married man, which we’re not going to go into, but we went to a gala last night and he brought me a boutonnière.
KYLE GETZ
Aww!
MIKE JOHNSON
I had a pretty flower on my suit and I just- I turned bright red, and it was adorable, and I just- Getting flowers from another man is like… that’s a thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s cute.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, and then the straightest thing about me this week: I worked out with hot Dakota, the hot trainer, again and the whole session we talked about Diablo IV. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] So excited about the necromancer. Play Diablo IV, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
MIKE JOHNSON
I love it.
KYLE GETZ
We’ll love that necromancer.
MIKE JOHNSON
How about you, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
Um, my gayest is that, when-
MIKE JOHNSON
Look, corpse explosion is amazing. Like, you kill something, and then there’s a corpse, and then you can push another button and the corpse explodes like a zit and hurts the other- Anyway. Sorry.
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is listening to that conversation.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is I am trying to avoid using Instagram.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
I think gays are, like, supposed to be on Instagram, and they follow everyone, and they have all their socials and all that shit, and I’m trying to not do that. I’m trying to avoid Instagram.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
That’s my straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
I need you to do some though.
KYLE GETZ
No…
MIKE JOHNSON
For the show.
KYLE GETZ
No, no…
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, Derek handles on Instagram but, like-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Anytime I’m on there it just makes me feel bad about stuff, so. Uh, my gayest is that, when we were in New York, when I got back to the hotel room, I would just turn on the TV. Since when do I watch TV? That’s a weird thing. Like, with commercials and everything. And I would- I looked on the TV guide thing and I found Golden Girls, so I watched me some Golden Girls-
MIKE JOHNSON
Aww!
KYLE GETZ
-both nights in the hotel room.
KYLE GETZ
That’s awesome.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah! It was great! [Mike chuckles] Joseph Peters-Mathews, what about you?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Uh, my straightest this week was, because my family is out of town, I just saved myself a ribeye and had it by myself with a nice glass of Washington syrah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s wonderful.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then my gayest has been binging Star Trek: Discovery because, like, are there straight people on that show? [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God, season three especially.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s just, like- There- Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
There’s this is trans lesbian couple who are like 12.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
16ish. But yeah, and then the lesbian engineer… who might not actually be a lesbian? I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Jett Reno?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Yeah, Jett.
MIKE JOHNSON
For sure.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
And then Mark from Rent, who’s super gay with his hot doctor husband?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
So yeah, this is a gay show.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. There are moments when there’s literally zero cis straight white men on screen. And, like, that is fucking fabulous.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It helps when half the cast is aliens.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, that’s true. That’s true. [Kyle chuckles] I should have said “humans”. I should have added “humans” to my list of characters. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
With Star Trek you have to add “humans”. Most shows, you don’t have to add that. But yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ah, that’s awesome. Well, Joseph, thank you so much for being here-
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It’s been a pleasure.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and for being just you and your wonderful self and dealing with our bullshit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
It was great.
KYLE GETZ
You still hold the record of most guest appearances out of anyone, right? Oh, no, maybe your mom might be ahead.
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
I don’t think she counts; she has her own segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
That’s true. That’s very true. We’ll get “The Bible with Joseph” as a segment goin’. [Joseph and Mike laugh] I also want to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, William Bryant, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you for your support.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you for your support. That’s it! This has been Gayish, from the Chris Khachatourians studios. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Be buying your tickets for Chicago, dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Yeaaah.
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
The term for how Anglicanism is organized is “autocephalous” and it means-
MIKE JOHNSON
“Self-head”?
JOSEPH PETERS-MATHEWS
Sort of! “Locally governed”.
KYLE GETZ
That’s like “I gave myself syphilis,” [Mike laughs] like “I fucked my own self and got syphilis.”
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]