Pirates are so bisexual, we’re officially proposing renaming them birates. We talk about all the wonderful gay, bi, and poly things that go down on the Island of Tortuga, the historical gender-bending bisexual female pirates that formed a throuple with John “Calico Jack” Rackham, butt pirates, matelotage, Our Flag Means Death, and the terrifying reality of modern-day pirates (and what that has in common with gay stereotypes).
We were nominated for a Cybersocket Award! Vote for us at cybersocketawards.com (NSFW)!
In this episode: News- 4:07 || Main Topic (Pirates)- 16:36 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:10:46
Our next quarterly Patreon Happy Hour is on May 4th at 6pm Pacific / 9pm Eastern, and Gaytrons of any and all level are welcome to hang out with us! Join for just $2/mo. to get amazing benefits like this and to support independent LGBTQ content! Check out www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast for all the deets.
Flight attendant is the stereotypically gayest job, but does the data (I mean, gayta) say the stereotype is true? We talk about where the stereotype came from, the very first flight attendant (who was a dude and maybe gay?), the Supreme Court decision that paved the way for gay flight attendants (Diaz v. Pan American World Airways), and the most infamous gay flight attendant of all: AIDS/HIV Patient Zero, aka Gaétan Dugas.
In this episode: News- 5:35 || Main Topic (Flight Attendants)- 20:24 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:18:01
On the Patreon bonus segment, we answer Google’s top flight attendant questions, such as “Do flight attendants get laid?” And remember to leave us a voicemail with your questions for Ma Johnson at 585-542-9474 (standard rates apply). Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
This is the episode that gets us formally kicked out of the Catholic Church. For the last live show of our mini tour, we bring the foreskin to Seattle! We talk about a lot of topics, but the only ones you’ll remember are face cream and Jesus’ foreskin.
In this episode: News- 6:49 || Main Topic (Foreskin)- 15:12 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:18:47
Starting next month, we’re going to be doing short, monthly Momsplaining episodes for the $5+/mo Patreon members! Join at patreon.com/gayishpodcast, and be sure to leave us a voicemail with your questions for Ma Johnson at 585-542-9474 (standard rates apply).
For our 5th anniversary celebration, we talk about (and drink) blondes! We taste the Gayish blonde ale beer live, analyze the gay stereotype “Legally Blonde” hinged on, talk about the gay moment that got “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” author Anita Loos kicked off TV, and use research to answer whether blondes really are dumb. Our final live show is in Seattle THIS SUNDAY, April 10! Details at gayishpodcast.com/live.
Note about the audio: we had some technical difficulties, so the audio is a little rough for the first few minutes, but it gets better, we promise!
In this episode: News- 9:43 || Main Topic (Blondes)- 19:26 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:22:04
Check out the new bonus audio you’ll get at the $5/mo level at patreon.com/gayishpodcast. And leave us a voicemail with your questions for Ma Johnson at 585-542-9474 (standard rates apply).
Are the stereotypes of frat guys fair? Have fraternities been getting better for gay members? Is frat guy porn any good? What does Mike’s frattoo say? And how does Nick Jonas fit in? We talk about one of Kyle’s favorite topics, frat bros, live at the Treefort Music Festival in Boise, ID.
Remember to email audio or written entries for the theme song contest by Friday, April 1. Also, come see us live at our upcoming Portland or Seattle shows! Details at gayishpodcast.com/live.
In this episode: News- 7:09 || Main Topic (Frat Guys)- 18:30 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:32:43
On the bonus Patreon segment, we’ll take you behind the scenes just a few hours before our show to talk about the festival, prepping for the show, and some of the shitting things that happened in Boise. Support us and get cool benefits, like these bonus segments, by going to patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
Whatever consenting adults do behind closed doors is their own business… right? While we often hear this refrain to support gay issues, we test the boundaries of its truth by discussing the uncomfortable topic of incest. We cover worldwide societal norms; the Bible; the Westermarck Effect; the theory of Genetic Sexual Attraction; step-dad, step-son, and step-brother incest porn; consanguineous relationships; and, of course, the TV show Private Practice.
Remember to submit audio or written entries to our theme song contest by April 1, and check out our Pacific Northwest tour dates at gayishpodcast.com/live.
In this episode: News- 5:43 || Main Topic (Incest)- 24:50 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:33:07
On this very special bonus Patreon segment, it’s a family affair! We have Ma Johnson join for a ridiculous Momsplaining, and Kyle surprises Mike with the text messages Mike’s brothers sent when Kyle asked them, if they were gay, would they be attracted to Mike? Get all the info on benefits, including bonus segments and video, at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
If you want to do more reading on this week’s topic, here are some of the articles referenced in the show:
If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual violence, you can contact RAINN.org, the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network, for support at 800-656-4673, or visit their website for live chat.
“I would name drop, but I’ve already been in their DMs.” Sable Jones St. James, the reining Miss Gay Virginia United States At Large, joins us to talk everything pageant: pageant queens vs. drag queens, Southern drag, competing in the “big girl” division, the fourth wall of drag, RuPaul’s Drag Race’s affect on the drag world, and whether drag queens bang each other. Sable’s contact: IG @sablejones_stjames and Venmo @sablejonesusa.
Plus, we announce the Gayish theme music contest! Written or audio entries re-doing the theme song are due Friday, April 1. Be sure to check out our upcoming Pacific Northwest tour dates for Boise, Portland, and Seattle at gayishpodcast.com/live.
In this episode: News- 4:23 || Main Topic (Pageants)- 15:02 || Guest (Sable Jones St. James)- 22:03 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:06:55
On the bonus Patreon segment, Mike and Kyle dig into the problematic nature of Miss Gay America, starting with their tag line, “where boys are boys and female impersonation is an art!”Get additional segments each week and loads of our backlog content for $5/mo at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
We talk about LGBT arrests, including some of the largest mass LGBT arrests, the misunderstood three article law, “walking while trans” laws, online misgendering/harassment, and the arrest of a famous closeted ‘90s singer.
In this episode: News- 4:38 || Main Topic (Arrests)- 19:35 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:24:39
On the bonus Patreon segment, we become a true crime podcast when a naked body is found at the bottom of a cliff. Get bonus segments for $5/mo at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
Star Trek superfan, Klingon speaker, and host of the podcast Queersplaining Callie Wright joins us to nerd out with Mike. YES, there is a lot of Star Trek talk, but we also talk about the queer and trans experience, the importance of non-binary actors playing non-binary characters, and whether bad representation is actually bad. Oh, and gay horny space whales.
In this episode: News- 7:01 || Main Topic (Star Trek)- 24:26 || Guest (Callie Wright)- 32:02 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:20:17
On the bonus Patreon segment, Kyle reads his favorite gay Star Trek tweets to Mike and Callie, and Callie talks about learning to speak Klingon. Bonus content and lots of other great benefits available at patreon.com/gayishpodcast
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that supports Ukraine-ing your neck around to watch me fuck you from behind.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, wow, that took a turn. At the neck joint.
KYLE GETZ
At the neck joint.
MIKE JOHSON
I’m Mike Johnson
KYLE GETZ
Like all good bottoms. I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today
KYLE GETZ
Today! Bleep bloop blorp bloop.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re going to talk about Star Trek. I’m so excited.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Luckily for me, we have brought in a guest trek- trek- trekspert? I was trying-
MIKE JOHNSON
A trekspert, that’s great.
KYLE GETZ
To help you have a meaningful conversation instead of trying to explain to me why I should care. So, Callie Wright will be on in mere minutes.
MIKE JOHNSON
In mere minutes.
KYLE GETZ
And if you listen at 1.5 speed… Mere Minutes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. But first,
KYLE GETZ
but first.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re going to put this at the top of the show now until like until it happens. So you’ll be super annoyed maybe by it.
KYLE GETZ
No, you- You’re all so excited to hear about this because we’re doing cool, fun, exciting things and it’s all because of people listening and supporting.
MIKE JOHNSON
OK, zloorp. Rewind, rewind, rewind. Hey everybody, we’re going on a Pacific Northwest tour and you are invited. We would love for you to please attend one of three exciting live shows happening three weekends in a row in celebration of our fifth anniversary as a podcast! First: Boise, Idaho, March 26, it’s lovely this time of year from 4 – 6pm Mountain Time at the Treefort Music Festival. We will be podcasting our asses off for you. It’s going to be amazing. Please come to that.
KYLE GETZ
It’s free.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s free.
KYLE GETZ
You don’t even you don’t need a ticket to the other music festival part you can show up and sit down and listen.
MIKE JOHNSON
If that’s not good enough for you, maybe Portland, Oregon is good enough for you. Portland Oregon is the very next weekend it’ll be April 3 at Hop Capital Brewing.
KYLE GETZ
It’s lovely this time of year
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s lovely this time of year.
KYLE GETZ
That’s what I’m gonna say about any and every live show ever do anywhere.
MIKE JOHNSON
That is Sunday, April the 3rd at 1pm, pacific time. And then, Oh, should we tell them the secret? I guess it’s not a secret because it’s on instagram.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I posted it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hop Capitol Brewing is making a Gayish beer! We went and made beer with them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, we like poured things into other things. Some dude tried to explain to me things that I was like, I don’t need this information but great, thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
There was bubbling and churning.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yeah, it’s mango Kiwi… pale ale?
MIKE JOHNSON
Blonde, mango kiwi blonde.
KYLE GETZ
It was in the vicinity.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which you can try out our live show on April 3 in Portland, Oregon.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah,
MIKE JOHNSON
at 1pm Pacific time.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then we’re ending our little tour with a stop for a live show in our hometown right here in our backyard of Seattle, Washington at the Hula Hula Karaoke Bar up in the gayborhood. Also free, it’s going to be amazeballs.
KYLE GETZ
It’s on April 10
MIKE JOHNSON
April 10th. Sunday April 10 at 2pm Pacific Time
KYLE GETZ
Lovely this time of year.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is lovely this time of year!
KYLE GETZ
It’s gross and rainy, but it’s lovely! And that’s the day after my birthday so you have to come support me personally too.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna sing, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Oh fuck then, no you’re not, I’m leaving. The second you try to do that I’m done. I leave and I go home. My home is not too far from there, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s walking distance from there.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON.
Do me a favor you motherfuckers: go to the Facebook page, not the group. The page. And find-
KYLE GETZ
facebook.com/gayishpodcast
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you Kyle. What would I do without you?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. No one knows what the – Yeah – /gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
And indicate that you are going or are interested in any or all of those that you’re able to make it to. It will very much help us with planning because this is, this is new for us, doing events on our own without, like, somebody else doing all the work so, it would it would very much help us out. Please. Please You dirty bitches. Go do it.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. And you can go to gayishpodcast.com/live to see all the details.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
[4:43]
KYLE GETZ
Um,
MIKE JOHNSON
Next,
KYLE GETZ
Next,
MIKE JOHNSON
Feedback slash corrections. You wanna talk about Lil Mama?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I mentioned Lil Mama and had no idea, someone posted on our Facebook group, thank you that Lil Mama: fucking transphobic! So Lil Mama talked about, “Kids these days, they’re all changing genders!” That’s precisely how she said it, too, verbatim quote, and she’s –
MIKE JOHNSON
You sound just like her.
KYLE GETZ
Me and Lil Mama. Hopefully Avril Lavine has distanced herself from Lil Mama. I don’t know that, I just made that up because it seems like something people might say.
MIKE JOHNSON
before or after she died and was replaced.
KYLE GETZ
Mm hmm
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe transphobic Lil Mama is the old Avril Lavine in disguise.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, that’s so many hoops that you’d have to – Yeah, so transphobic, she, and then when she started getting flack for transphobic comments, she said that they need, she’s going to start heterosexual rights organizations because they need, because people get bullied all the time for just speaking their mind. And she knows plenty, in her Instagram post defending herself, she’s talked about how she knows, she knows people from the LGBT+ community, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, I have a friend defense.
KYLE GETZ
I got a gay friend defense. Yep. Yeah, so fuck her. And, um, and come see us live!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, her lip gloss is no longer poppin.
KYLE GETZ
It’s stompin.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you. Thank you for the tip and keeping us honest. It’s hard to know who we’ve canceled these days.
KYLE GETZ
Well. I get so annoyed- I won’t go, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
I just get annoyed at the word canceled because anytime anyone’s like, oh, like cancel culture, this thing? Dave Chappelle still has a show on Netflix, like, she’s still gonna be acting and saying like, “canceled.” Canceling is not, like, that doesn’t actually happen at least not to the things that people think it does.
MIKE JOHNSON.
Yeah, that’s true. All right, Lil Mama.
KYLE GETZ
Fuck off.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck off. OK!
[6:52]
KYLE GETZ
Do you have anything else?
MIKE JOHNSON
No, not in this portion.
KYLE GETZ
Ok. In this portion of the broadcast?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m ready to move on to the news.
KYLE GETZ
Shall we move on to the news?
MIKE JOHNSON
Here’s the news.
NEWS INTRO MUSIC [MIKE SINGING]
Shut your mouth hole, it’s time for your ear holes. News! News. News.
[7:09]
MIKE JOHNSON
News the first: The “Don’t Say Gay or Trans,” bill in Florida has passed the Florida House, which we knew was going to happen and we’ve already talked about it on the show. But just not to be outdone, Texas said hold my beer.
KYLE GETZ
Hold my queer… kids.
MIKE JOHNSON
More to the point, the asshole dickbad fuckface son of a bitch Governor of Texas has said hold my beer.
KYLE GETZ
If you’re gonna hold a beer, hold Gayish branded beer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, Governor Greg Abbott on Friday. Nope. Whenever it was, last week, Tuesday? Doesn’t matter, time has no meaning. He ordered the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services to begin investigating instances of children undergoing gender transition or gender affirming procedures as child abuse. He labeled all of those things as child abuse and ordered the CPS, basically the Texas version, the state version of CPS, to begin investigating that as child abuse quote, “to protect Texas Children.” Which you could do any fucking evil as shit you want to as long as you say it’s for the children, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, starting with: to protect Texas Children…
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m raping this cat.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, like yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s like “Well, well, but technically it’s for the children.” You know, downhome Houstonian dude says as he’s halfway inside poor Tabby.
MIKE JOHNSON
Under the directive, licensed professionals will be required to report quote, “Children who may be subject to such abuse.” Such procedures include reassignment surgeries that can cause sterilization, mastectomies, removals of otherwise healthy body parts and administration of puberty blocking drugs or supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, or estrogen.” And all licensed professionals in the state who directly interact with children, including teachers and doctors could face criminal penalties for not reporting these procedures. And the general public, apparently, could also be subject to penalties for failing to make reports so like, read the most open, shitty, permissive way, just if you know that your cousin had gender confirmation surgery, it would be your duty to report it to the state or you’re guilty of a crime just like their fuckin abortion law. God dammit.
KYLE GETZ
But this is different in that it is not a law, which is like not trying to make anything sound great. It is different than like, they did not pass a law to do this. He issued, you know, a statement, an opinion to say to do this.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re mostly right. You’re sort of not right, though.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because this, Governor Abbott said this, made this proclamation, just a few days after Texas Attorney General Paxton declared in a formal opinion that the procedures are already considered child abuse under existing state law.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, so they’re like, here’s how we’re interpreting the law.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
That already exists, gotcha.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which I mean, most, that’s kind of how laws work. And that’s why we need a legislative body, most laws could probably be interpreted to say something shitty about trans or gay people.
MIKE JOHNSON
And there are a lot of states for which like, they write laws intentionally to be just like, don’t do bad stuff. And then who, who gets to decide what bad stuff is? Yeah, well, I do yeah, I’m the dude with the big stick. Anyway… fucking Texas, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah it’s, it’s insane. It’s a, I have family members that vote Republican and it’s like, your vote directly attacks the people in like, your, directly attacks my community. Directly harms my community, is going to result in kids dying, like very one to one. This is not an indirect, “this impression is a negative that blah, blah, blah.” This is a one to one. Like, you’re… it’s just gonna kill kids. It’s, it’s shitty. It’s horrible. It’s gross. I’m like, disgusted to be from Texas when this shit happens.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, Texas doesn’t have a monopoly, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Doesn’t have a monopoly, unforch.
MIKE JOHNSON
We can be disgusted on your behalf. Um, yeah, keep your chins up everybody. I think that this is, like, what we are seeing is the last dying gasp of a movement that knows that it is over. By that I mean straight people running the world.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Hope so.
[12:02]
MIKE JOHNSON
News the Second?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
As I’m sure you have heard, the Russian military has invaded the country of Ukraine. And that is, not, here’s the Gayish angle to all of that. So, after this big like, will he won’t he saga.
KYLE GETZ
It’s like the worst kind of rom com.
MIKE JOHNSON
The season finale arrived, and he invaded Ukraine this last Thursday. So Ukrainians, a lot of them are trying to flee the country. A lot of them are fighting back as well, with the president sort of leading the charge there. And a couple of things that I just wanted to say about that, there are a lot of LGBT people in Ukraine, especially former Russians because Ukraine had become more progressive when it came to queer rights. And there’s a great deal of fear in that community right now, justifiably so, that if Russians take over the Ukraine or install a puppet government, that their policies will then become more anti-LGBT, the way that the rest of Russia is. But also, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, just today, went on record as saying that she thinks part of the appeal of Putin to Republicans, because a lot of Republicans have been saying nice things about Putin.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is quote, “because he’s anti gay, and anti freedom.” And I think that’s a really interesting theory that like, oh, “he thinks like me, go, Go Vlad!”
KYLE GETZ
A lot of their values line up! Like, it’s, and yeah, and yeah, like, before all of this that should have been a big insult that like, you’re on the side of Russia, like, but they’re directly like, Republicans are openly being like, “wait, I’m fine with Putin,” like, not roundabout but just saying, “I’m fine with,” or “I like Putin,” or yeah, “He’s good.” Like, it’s insane. It’s, it’s insane.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And I didn’t know Hillary Clinton made that kind of, like, direct connection, though, between those things.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, she was, let’s see, she was, she was asked about it on Morning Joe. And, she said that, well, okay. So first of all, part of the reason that Republicans are now all like, making out with Putin is is because of fucking Trump, right? Like he has described Putin just in regards to the Ukraine as being quote, “a genius, savvy, smart,” like, Trump is directly praising him and like,
KYLE GETZ
helps that Russians got him elected. Very useful, like,
MIKE JOHNSON
But hardcore Trump Republicans do not have any filter whatsoever, like whatever he says goes right into their brain and then out their mouth.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, she was asked about it. And she said, people who see Putin as a strong leader, aligned with their conservative values, quote, “are naive in such a dangerous way. They somehow believe that because Putin presents himself as a strong leader, and on certain values that are anti gay and anti freedom and democracy, that somehow that corresponds with the views of some members and some elements and views of the Republican Party. They could not be more mistaken. This is heartbreaking, but it’s also dangerous. And I think it’s time for what’s left of the Republican Party that has any common sense not just to say, ‘Okay, go help defend Ukraine against Putin,’ but to stand against those people in politics and government, in the media and elsewhere in our own country, who are literally giving aid and comfort to an enemy of freedom and democracy.”
KYLE GETZ
That’s very, it’s very true. Like we have talked about that with Trump, of people with a shitty, old school, or skewed sense of what masculinity is, sees Trump and sees money, screwing over people
MIKE JOHNSON
Pussy grabbing.
KYLE GETZ
Indiscriminate pussy grabbing, like all of that. No filter on what you say. Like, they see all that as a positive and they see that as a healthy or good masculinity, and Putin same thing.
MIKE JOHSON
Yeah. Yep, absolutely. Fucking dickbag asshole. I will, this is gonna hurt Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
No tall Republicans. Not all Republicans, right? House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, who is otherwise a fucking prick ass shitbag, said in a statement this week quote, “Vladimir Putin is a bad guy. He’s an authoritarian, He yearns for an empire. And we need to do everything we can to stop it.”
KYLE GETZ
God, you know, the bar has been reset when you’re like, “Oh, cool. You’re against Russia. Yay!” Like that was a question, you know, 10 years ago at all like. Man, we need to do our own version of resetting the bar our way. We are going to forcibly make every kid trans so that way when they just let our trans kids exist, then we’re like, fine. Okay. That’s the middle ground.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. There’s a bunch of Republicans that are like, it’s “Black History Month. Slavery is bad.”
KYLE GETZ
And we’re like, Oh, God, Thank you! Really? Yes! We know it. We all acknowledge that slavery is bad. Right. Right, guys?
MIKE JOHNSON
God, okay.
[17:47]
KYLE GETZ
Uh, I thought you’re gonna talk about the Grindr thing that people have been saying.
MIKE JOHNSON
I don’t know if it’s true.
KYLE GETZ
I don’t either.
MIKE JOHNSON
I tried to, I tried to verify it.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, you did?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And we’ll, we’ll see.
KYLE GETZ
Okay,
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ll check it. If it’s true. I want to talk about it next week.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or we can talk about it now, fuck it.
KYLE GETZ
Well, here’s the, here’s the, just give the what might be happening, the rumors.
MIKE JOHNSON
What might be happening is, Vladimir Putin is livid at the fact that despite his public claims that there are no gay people in Russia, especially in the military, they are able to track Russian troop movements via Grindr. Which, I mean, we can track where the Republicans are meeting through Grindr, so.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true, you know when there’s a Republican convention. You know where the bathrooms are. You can triangulate based on feet away.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tap, tap, tap.
KYLE GETZ
Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
I hope it’s true. God, I hope it’s true. Makes me so fucking happy. Oh, one last thing before I move on to news the last. There is a, if you’re interested in helping out LGBTIQ people who are in Ukraine and need help as a result of the Russian invasion, you can go to outrightinternational.org/ukraine. It is a fundraising campaign that is geared for shelter and support in nearby countries to try to help LGBT Ukrainians get through this.
KYLE GETZ
Did you say LGBTIQ?
MIKE JOHNSON
LGBTIQ. That’s what they’re, that’s their language.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve never, I’ve never heard that organization of letters. I feel like I’ve heard most like, most alphabet organization on that, that saying. Makes you sound smart.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s #LGBTIQ, whatever that means. Anyway, go give them money.
KYLE GETZ
Cool.
[19:41]
MIKE JOHNSON
News the Last, and I’m sorry that it’s been American politics heavy this week, kids, but there’s just a lot going on
KYLE GETZ
That wasn’t American politics. Well, I guess we talked a lot about Republicans.
MIKE JOHNSON
As you may or may not have heard, there is a United States Supreme Court vacancy that Joseph Biden, our president, gets to nominate a replacement. And he has selected judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to serve on the Supreme Court. She is currently serving on the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit. And Biden says quote, “She is one of our nation’s brightest legal minds and will be an exceptional justice.” And she’s a 51 year old Harvard College and Harvard Law School grad. And her confirmation now heads to the Senate. And according to the advocate, she has never issued a controversial ruling, as it pertains to LGBTQ+ issues from the trust from the bench. She has a flawless record for queer issues.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. That’s got to be rare. That has to be a newer thing that that we’re finding like, I, you know, I wonder if you could find any judge 20 years ago that would have had that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, they did a rather relatively exhaustive look into her past. And the only thing that they could find was apparently she sat on the board of a school, a Christian private school that said that it is anti-gay. So she set on the board of a school whose website says they don’t like gay people, like that’s the worst they could find for her. So I think we’re gonna let that one go. But yeah, and it might come up, according to the 19th, which is a news organization, the 19thnews.org. They think that she might face questions on her role with the school board at her confirmation hearing. But yeah, President Biden said that he would be selecting a black woman to sit on the Supreme Court and by God he fucking did.
KYLE GETZ
And for the first time ever, Republicans cared about considering everyone equally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right. Yeah,
KYLE GETZ
Never before has anyone given a shit with with Brett fucking Cavanaugh. Who cares who and if we consider the right people, but when it’s a Black woman, we gotta make sure everyone’s treated equally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. Yeah, that’s the real racism. Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, the racism against me.
MIKE JOHNSON
God. Anyway, I’m super excited for Judge, Justice Jackson. I hope her confirmation goes smoothly. Apparently, it’s not expected to go smoothly, but Republicans don’t have the votes to stop it. So fucking eat that shit, republicans. They’re the ones that change the rules to make it a 50% process for confirmation of Supreme Court justices. So they’re now being hoisted by their own petard. That’s the news.
[22:47]
KYLE GETZ
Suck my petard. Um, I would like to thank the following people that I would nominate onto the Gayish Supreme Court of justices, if that were a thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great, let’s pack that court not.
KYLE GETZ
They’ll do some kind of packing that’s for sure. Thank you to Patreon members, locale by localibi.
MIKE JOHNSON
Localabi?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Ok…
KYLE GETZ
If that’s how you pronounce it. I love it. If it’s not, I hate it. um, Sean Lambert.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Sibling to Adam.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Better singer. Betcha didn’t know that. And Patricia Johnson.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh,I know that bitch.
KYLE GETZ
Is that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, that’s Ma Johnson. So what happened was, she said, while I was home from Murph’s wedding. She said, “I can’t see your guys’s stuff on Patreon anymore.” So I look and it’s because she’s not a Patreon supporter. I don’t know how she was getting it before, so I logged onto her phone to put my credit card down so she could get our, [LAUGHS].
KYLE GETZ
I was gonna say we don’t give her that shit. Like, I feel like when you’ve contributed to some level, you get just automatic Patreon membership. Okay,
MIKE JOHNSON
yeah, but we can’t – Patreon won’t let us comp it. Right?
KYLE GETZ
Ooh, interesting. All right. No free rides, everybody. Pay your own way. Thank you to everyone. Thank you to this batch of Patreon members, particularly the one that’s on the show occasionally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, thanks for the one that gave birth to me.
KYLE GETZ
One out of three, we won’t tell you. if you want to join, get bonus content, episodes. Other benefits include, certain levels get video, you get a shirt, you get to pick an episode at our highest level. Go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
[24:26]
KYLE GETZ
Do you want to talk
MIKE JOHNSON
Do I?!
KYLE GETZ
[LAUGHS] About Star Trek?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So okay. Also, I forgot to mention this earlier. This might technically be, a Gap Bridgers fault. So Dusty, Dusty Sands said to us a million years ago when we ran into him in Yakima, that Star Trek might be like, what he would pick so I’m blaming this on him.
KYLE GETZ
But although, like, I was the one that organized this like, found a guest that, Callie Wright, does their own podcast as well and, super into Star Trek, as hopefully we will hear soon. I dunno, maybe I was like, just wanted you to owe me one or I don’t know why I was like the one that organized and, and got this going so, I don’t know, props me for caring I guess.
MIKE JOHNSON
I texted him today to ask, like, can we call this episode your fault? And he said no I don’t want Kyle to hate me.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, sorry, Mike will text you, ask you, and then do the opposite and it’s your fault and I hate you. So I don’t know. You’re, you’re trapped. You better give us more money.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, yeah, we’re gonna talk about Star Trek. So Star Trek is real queer, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I will, I don’t know if I’ll do this now or in the Patreon segment, I have, I just looked for my favorite Twitter tweets. You know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Twitter tweets?
KYLE GETZ
Tweets that come from Twitter, not the other tweets. Twitter ones. About Star Trek. And I will say, one of my favorite ones was “Star Trek best gay moments? What is this? You just watch the whole show?” That is by @viisabiggay, what was that? Vi is- VSA Big Gay? Anyway, thought that was very funny.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is it “Seven’s a Big Gay,” and it’s about Seven of Nine?
KYLE GETZ
Ooh! I don’t know what the last part but it might be “Seven’s a Big Gay.” Yeah. What is that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Seven of Nine is a Borg character that originated in Star Trek Voyager. She’s now in Star Trek Picard, or at least was in season one. And in the very last episode, Spoiler alert, everybody. We discovered that well, no, it wasn’t the last episode, it was the last, like, few episodes. But anyway, she’s she’s apparently a lesbian, or like, at least at least into chicks.
KYLE GETZ
Boy, we have to do a whole show where you do stuff like that to my ears. It was so quick within that explanation that I was bored.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, well… alright.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, I don’t know what’s happening. Episode canceled, see ya later!
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t be such a cunt, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
I can’t. I just didn’t care about anything! Um, no, yes. That’s why we’re bringing you a friend to play with.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
But you’ve, before, you’ve watched all Star Trek? Twice backwards?
MIKE JOHNSON
I have now seen every single minute of Star Trek that exists. I think, I mean, yes.
KYLE GETZ
Including movies?
MIKE JOHNSON
including movies. I’m caught up on Discovery. I’m caught up on Lower Decks. I’m caught up on Prodigy. I rewatched all of Picard yesterday because Season Two starts next week. The day this episode drops actually it starts tonight is the premiere. That’s sort of why we coordinated it for this time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. For all those wild with excitement about Picard.
MIKE JOHNSON
Season two starts tonight.
KYLE GETZ
Cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Only on Paramount plus, sponsored by
KYLE GETZ
a mountain of content.
MIKE JOHNSON
Happy Hole Toys.Yeah, you know, this is, I’m gonna make it sad. Gayish!
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
My dad and I don’t have very much in common and have a really hard time finding ways to bond and Star Trek has always been that. So, like, just having something that my dad and I both like to do together is at least half of my attraction to the franchise. Or at least how I got started on it
KYLE GETZ Interesting
MIKE JOHNSON
Back in the original series days, before Next Generation was even on. So yeah, it’s been, it’s been a big part of my life and my identity for a really really long time. And I’m not like a… I, like, Dunning Kruger, I would put myself like, I know enough to know that I don’t know that much about Star Trek. But I could rattle off a bunch of shit That’s also true, and trivia-ish. So, I don’t want to call myself a superfan because they’re like diehard, like, crazy asses out there.
KYLE GETZ
Have you ever cosplayed as one? As a, as a Star Trek?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Have you ever had someone,
MIKE JOHNSON
So that’s not exactly true because I did dress up like an engineer and was on stage at at Universal Studios in, no, Paramount.
KYLE GETZ
As an engineer, like a generic engineer or a Star Trek engineer?
MIKE JOHNSON
At the theme park in Southern California, they had a Star Trek experience thing where they would cast people and I got cast as an engineer, Mom got cast as a Klingon. And they put us in costumes and, that’s not like cosplaying though. That’s just like a role.
KYLE GETZ
Would you ever have someone dress up as a Star Trek character as part of sexual foreplay?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh!
KYLE GETZ
Maybe we need Callie here to get everyone’s perspective on this.
MIKE JOHNSON
[Thoughtfully] Would I be into that? I don’t know. Not sure.
KYLE GETZ
All right. Maybe by the end of this episode, you’ll get the answer to the biggest question of this season of Gayish.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
All right.
MIKE JOHNSON
You don’t watch. You’ve watched like three episodes that I made you watch.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve watched a handful of the Next Generation. And, you have people over to watch the newer ones where they’re, you know, the ones were they’re on that ship.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. You saw an episode of Discovery, just like, two weeks ago.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. And, I’ve seen I think I’ve come over once or twice, two other times. So I’ve seen a few. I think I saw I started to have a threesome during the Chris Pine movie. Well, the first movie that came out and then got uncomfortable and left, so I didn’t, I didn’t watch the movie or have an orgasm, so, you know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That movie, the first time I saw it, I also got uncomfortable and left.
KYLE GETZ
Was it threesome related, or?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Unfortunately. No, it was JJ Abrams related
KYLE GETZ
Wait really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Because, like, I love all Star Trek. And I would put those movies at like the bottom of my list of things I care about
KYLE GETZ
Suck it JJ Abrams. Yeah! Lost was only okay, too! Hah, gottem! Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Lens Flare.
KYLE GETZ
Do you wanna take a break?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, well, yeah. Who is? Who is this person?
KYLE GETZ
Callie!
MIKE JOHNSON
Callie, great. We’re gonna talk to Callie.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, Callie is the host of Queersplaining. And Big Star Trek fan, at least according to their Twitter. So we’ll hear a little bit more and get the, get the full deets.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome. Sure. Let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break
[BREAK MUSIC: MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
[32:02]
MIKE JOHNSON
So are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back.
KYLE GETZ
We’re here with Callie Wright, the host of Queersplaining. Um, I, Callie, read on your Twitter that you are a super okay roller derby player?
CALLIE WRIGHT
I am. I am indeed super okay. The okayest in fact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wait, what’s your roller derby name? They’re my favorite things in the universe, I think. Next to Star Trek.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Ursa Maim-her
MIKE JOHNSON
Ursa Maim-her, I love it.
KYLE GETZ
Is there anything gayer than roller derby? That feels very gay, I know we’re about to talk about why Star Trek is super gay, but roller derby is pretty gay.
CALLIE WRIGHT
I mean, literally gay sex might be gayer than roller derby.
KYLE GETZ
I question that!
CALLIE WRIGHT
But listen, I said “May.” I said “May.”
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes. And, and your location that you say on Twitter is, I would like to try to go first pronouncing this
CALLIE WRIGHT
Oh my God, please do.
KYLE GETZ
[Kyle struggles to pronounce] Qo’noSDaq?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, that’s not no, that’s not it at all.
KYLE GETZ
I looked it up and it’s a Star Trek thing, right?
CALLIE WRIGHT
It is definitely a Star Trek thing. And I gotta say I I so admire that you just went for it. Even though it was, we’re just, we’re friends here and I can give you honest feedback, not the best.
KYLE GETZ
My pronouncing that wrong is going to be the least bad thing I do today. So that’s totally fine. Wait, how do you say and what is it?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Qo’noSDaq
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, I should have gotten that and of course
CALLIE WRIGHT
Come on, Get your life together.
KYLE GETZ
Wait, what is it?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s Kronos right?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Qo’noSDaq. It’s how you say “On Kronos” in Klingon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Klingon, yep.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
The Klingon homeworld.
KYLE GETZ
There’s gonna be so many questions where I decide if I, like, do I want to ask you what Kronos is, like, do I care? Like you know, there, I’m gonna have this just entire, this entire time. I guess the Star Trek episode I can ask “what is that?”
MIKE JOHNSON
They have two dicks! Maybe you wanna care about that.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! Now I’m interested. Now I’m invested!
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yep, yep. Uh, yeah. And here’s, here’s my thing. One of my favorite things in the world is shepherding people into the Star Trek fandom.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And so, my, my whole thing when I’m getting to know someone who is like, “oh, you know, like Star Trek seems super interesting to me, but I’ve never really watched it.” It’s like, cool. I’m going to ask you a bunch of really weird questions to get to know you. So I can curate your Star Trek experience. It’s one of my favorite things in the world to do.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow. Yeah. What are the, like, how do you guide people? What do you need to know to guide people to the right Star Trek vehicle?
MIKE JOHNSON
I very much want to hear you dial Kyle into Star Trek. This is gonna be great.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah. I mean, it depends a lot on someone’s personality and what other like, what sorts of things are you into media wise, like TV shows, comic books, podcasts, any of that sort of stuff?
KYLE GETZ
Um,
CALLIE WRIGHT
We’re just doing this live now, this is great. I’m stoked.
Kyle Getz
Yeah, it’s funny because it’s like once someone asks you, what do you like then I’m like, What do I, I don’t know-
MIKE JOHNSON
Bob’s Burgers and Grey’s Anatomy.
KYLE GETZ
I watch, I watch a lot of Bob’s Burgers. I just finished watching Search Party and loved that show. I I think one of the best gay podcasts out there is Gay Future. Uh, what, what are the things, do I-
CALLIE WRIGHT
Here’s the thing, if you’re a Bob’s Burgers fan, I can predict that you would like Lower Decks.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Which is the, the animated cartoon Star Trek that, to be honest, I was surprised to find a lot of people who have never seen Star Trek before love Lower Decks, because a lot of the humor in Lower Decks depends on like Easter egg, sort of like insider Star Trek knowledge. But my wife, very casual Star Trek fan, like she’s watched it with me sometimes, she likes it, but not as into it as I am. And she got maybe a third of the like, in jokes, and still thought it was fantastic. And I’ve talked to like four or five people now that said that Lower Decks was actually their entry into the Star Trek fandom, that they were just like, “Oh, you know, like, I saw a preview and I thought it looked really funny. So I figured I’d give it a shot. And now I’m interested in all the other series.” So just that little tidbit tells me maybe give Lower Decks a shot.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Okay. Other things you need to know about me just just, you know, for you to know me is I’m very popular. I think everyone really loves me.
CALLIE WRIGHT
That’s great!
KYLE GETZ
I’m the most handsomest.
MIKE JOHSON
Oh my goodness.
KYLE GETZ
What else? I’m fun at parties. No, none of that’s true.
[36:32]
CALLIE WRIGHT
Okay, well, you give off those vibes, So that, it’s not a hard thing to believe.
KYLE GETZ
Best guest ever. Let’s talk about me instead of Star Trek. No, no. Okay, let’s, let’s back up a little bit. And what is it about Star Trek? Why are you such a fan of Star Trek?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Oh, gosh, this is a very deep question.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And it, initially, it was just very much like, I’m a nerdy kid. There are aliens, there are spaceships, and I’m just interested in technology and all of that sort of stuff. It was very, like, superficial, I’m a nerdy kid sci fi stuff. But the more I started to watch it, the more I started to get into like, oh, well, there’s like, some serious stuff happening here. And this is like, right around the time in my life, where I start to kind of figure out that I’m queer and trans. But very much before I had any of the vocabulary to describe those things. But I definitely got the sense that, you know, in the world that I lived in, and the social circles that I lived in, there were parts of myself that I could never share with anyone, right? Anything that took me outside of stereotypical boy territory was not an okay thing to express to anyone, right? But in Star Trek, I saw a world where it was like, You know what, like, If I lived in that world, it probably wouldn’t matter. People would probably be cool with that. Right? And, so, a really big turning point for me was the episode “The Outcast”, which, meant to be a gay allegory. And they just somehow stumbled into a trans allegory without meaning to. And like, the quick synopsis is like, the Enterprise runs into this race called the J’naii, that are androgynous they don’t have gender, they don’t have sex, right? And not only that, do they not have these things, the idea of sex and gender is like, very backwards and taboo in their culture, which like, #GenderGoals for me. I wasn’t there at the time, but that’s where I am now. And, and so it turns out that there’s like, subcultures of people that do have gender and do have sex, and they have relationships with each other. And these people get forced into this, like, weird alien 24th Century version of conversion therapy, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yup, yup, yup.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And I’m watching all of this with only the vaguest idea of who I actually am, right. Like, I don’t know that I’m like, I know that I’m trans on some level. But I don’t know. I don’t know the word for it. I don’t know that that’s like an experience people in the world have, because mind you, at this point, when I see this episode, I may be 10, 11, 12 years old, you know? And I just kind of had the vaguest sense that like, oh, that person is different, I think maybe in the way that I’m different. And not only is everyone on the Enterprise cool with that, like Commander Riker is willing to risk his career and risk his life to save this person, who’s being treated badly because of the way they’re different. And it became very valuable to me in that way, in sort of giving me like an aspirational world to sort of live in in my imagination, where like, all the ways that I’m different like that’s, that’s all okay to be. And I guess the other big dimension to it is that I grew up without a dad in my life. My dad ran off as soon as he found out my mom was pregnant. And my stepdad, I don’t think he’s a terrible person, we’re just very different. We never got along. And so, you know, I’m grateful to him for working and putting food on the table, but I never ever saw him as a father at all. He was just like, the guy that took me to football practice and made over done steak on the grill sometimes. And so Captain Picard kind of became a surrogate father for me in that way. And then, and then I think, Captain Sisko kind of usurped that when I got into Deep Space 9.
[40:40]
KYLE GETZ
I did look at, and saw “The Outcast” mentioned, and something that happened at the end, I read, that Sorin, the character you’re you’re talking about, had to undergo treatment to cure her of her feelings of femininity that you mentioned, like the conversion therapy, that she had to face this kind of unfortunate thing that a lot of queer characters have to face, which is the shitty thing like having to undergo and just be put back to what how people think you should be.
MIKE JOHNSON
I would add a layer to that. There’s there’s a scene, there’s a scene not quite the end, but towards the end where she she gives this speech in front of a bunch of people about, I am female is, is the line that she says and it’s really, it’s it’s deeply moving, because she’s she’s, she’s coming out to this agender society as No, I’m, gender exists for some people, I’m one of them, and I am female. And then they come down hard on that, right, and she gets pushed into this conversion therapy.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And it makes me think a lot about how, like, when people are just really committed to being queerphobic or transphobic, it just, it just doesn’t seem to matter like how well you express the, the, like, foundational humanity of yourself in who you are, or the way that you love other people. And it… it makes me so it makes me so mad, sometimes, when people are like, you know, people are homophobic, and you just have to, like, love them out of being hateful, like that’s the thing you can realistically do. And like, that’s not to say that’s never happened, right, obviously, you know, there are stories of all kinds like that. But you know, I just think about all the times that I’ve tried to have those conversations with people where I really just like, put it all out there, right. And I share, like, my pain and my trauma, everything that I’ve been through, and how much my life improved when I came out and went on hormones and had bottom surgery and all that sort of stuff. And I’m like, you understand, like I was on the verge of dying, literally dying. Like, if I was not able to do this, there’s a really, really good chance I would be dead right now. But now I am a mostly happy, fully realized person that knows myself very well and has a community of amazing people. And I get to do all this cool stuff and lead this cool life. And you’re telling me that somehow, like, I would be better off if I was not allowed to be this thing. If I was not allowed to marry my wife, if I was not allowed to have bottom surgery. If I was not allowed to access hormone treatments, or build community with other queer and trans people. So you’re like, you’re literally telling me that I’d be better off if I were dead. Because then like, you know, at least God wouldn’t be pissed about who I am, or whatever. And I’ve just so many times I’ve had that conversation with people. And it’s just, they don’t, they don’t budge on it. Right? They try to find some way that that’s not a morally abhorrent thing. And that’s what I always think about when I watched that episode. And in fact, I still get emotional when I watch that episode. I’ve seen it dozens of times at this point in my life. You know, specifically for that reason, like when I’m doing a casual Next Gen rewatch I usually skip that episode for that reason, because it just like it still it still gets me. It’s a lot.
KYLE GETZ
So I was gonna ask about, kind of, that outcome for that character, and being exposed to, after all of this, you know, that speech to people, getting kind of a shitty outcome. How do you feel about that? Initially I was thinking, like, oh, that feels like it could be bad, like, oh, like you may face rejection but you’re talking about that feeling actually a little bit like kind of representative of your personal experience. So I’m,
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, yeah, I mean, I I’m kind of of two minds about it. Right? Because it is very realistic fucking in the real world. Sometimes the bad guys win.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Very often the people who hate us and want us to go away when and they gain power, and their propaganda is successful. And, and I think it’s really, really important that we not shy away from that fact. Because if we, if we just pretend like that’s not a thing, and we continually tell ourselves like, “Love conquers hate every time,” like, that’s just not fucking real life.
KYLE GETZ Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm Hmm.
CALLIE WRIGHT
But also, I, I think the sort of knock on harm of that is, is the idea that there is a, there is ever a world in which something approaching conversion therapy actually works. And like actually changes the way someone feels about themselves and the way they relate to other people. Because, you know, I, I’m always loath to tell people their own personal experiences are wrong. But that I mean, there’s just no good reason to think that if someone is gay, you like you can go through some kind of therapy and all of a sudden become not gay, right? And so many people that say that that’s their life experience, a couple years later, they find you find like, no, yeah, sorry, I was lying to myself the whole fucking time.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, ran the Center for convert conversion therapy and was like, fucking dudes all over the place.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Exactly, exactly. And so you know, I worry a little bit about that. But also, like, you know, in an alien world, 400 years from now, who knows what kind of fucked up things they can do to your brain. That’s scary.
KYLE GETZ
That’s… wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
I totally agree with you, and didn’t really think about that angle of it. There is a certain amount of like, take a step back and just look at production value. When you’re looking at episodic television that is going to be in syndication, you have to move the pieces back to the default setting. Like where the board starts. So arcs are actively discouraged, especially in older TV, so Commander Riker is in love with this woman. But she’s not going to stick around for more episodes, like their relationship is not going to turn out great because he needs to be single again for the next episode. And so how do you then, you know, have a happy ending for that character that doesn’t involve her being with Commander Riker? Have the conversion therapy work. That’s like, one one way to do it. So that’s, that’s what they do. And there’s other examples of that too. Like I think about, like, when Dr. Crusher falls in love with Odan the Trill.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Oh yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then at the end he ends up in a female presenting body and and then, now she wants to continue the relationship with Dr. Crusher and Dr. Crusher has to reject her and says ultimately that it’s not about, it’s not about the fact that she’s a woman now but that the change is too much for her, I think is what, how she how she postures it, but-
CALLIE WRIGHT
Boy is that relevant to the trans experience. [LAUGHS]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, but again, you know, Odan needs to go away because Dr. Crusher needs to be back to default setting for the next episode. Or I’m reminded also of like, when Lwaxana falls in love with Timicin, the dude that is from that planet that kills everybody when they turn 60 or whatever, and same kind of thing, like, they could have been together, he could have left his people and gone and been with Lwaxana, but now now there’s this other character floating around and instead he goes through the resolution and ends up dying.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Right, and who is Lwaxana if she’s not like thirsting after a random man when she’s in an episode. That’s just who she is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, her and Odo was just flat creepy. But anyway, go ahead, go ahead.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Honestly. Okay, this is a tangent from the point but I loved Lwaxana in DS9. He’s like, he’s like, I revert to a liquid state every 16 hours. And she’s like, that’s okay. I can swim. Alright, okay, alright honey.
KYLE GETZ
That’s kinda romantic!
CALLIE WRIGHT
Right? See, thank you!
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know any of the details. So you might be like, and then like, they kill each other, or I don’t know, I don’t know anything that happened about it.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Just know that you’re correct.
KYLE GETZ
Yes! I love being accidentally right! Okay, it’s funny. I wrote, I like looked up shit to ask y’all about and then I figured, Yeah, I would say things and I would kind of peace out in my mind while whatever happened out here, cuz I’m not gonna remember. But like so for some of these I have, like bullets and details. And then I just have one that says “Trill.”
CALLIE WRIGHT
Ooooh yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Mike has told me enough about Trill that I could, I thought I could just say Trill and kick back. And you already kind of had that reaction of like, relevant to the trans experience. I’m curious to hear more, hear more from you about Trill. Not a piccolo noise.
[49:32]
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, so for anyone listening not familiar. The TL:DR version is that the Trill are a species where a certain number of them carry these things called symbionts that carry the memories of past lives, right? So like if I have a symbiont it has all of my memories and then when I die, the symbiont can get passed to someone else and they have all of my memories, plus all the memories from the past hosts.
KYLE GETZ
God, I’d be so sorry, whoever got mine. I’m so sorry for what I did with this life. So sorry, you have to keep it going.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, actually, my thought was that sometimes I feel like my luck is so bad that I would get selected for joining, but I would be the first one. So I get a symbiont, it would be super, super badass to have a symbiont. But I would get none of the benefits of having memories of past lives.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s a plot line about that, by the way, in Deep Space 9, Jadzia’s symbiont is put into a murderer. And now, then she has to live with that the rest her life because it gets put back, there’s magic happens. But anyway, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, so the idea being that, like, you have the memories and life experiences of all of these other people before you, of all kinds of different peoples and genders and walks of life and occupations and sort of life dispositions and stuff. And so there’s something to be said there about the trans experience in that, like, you know, how does that make you feel about your gender when you, you are not only different in like, in a different body, but also kind of in a different mind, right? And like, what does that change about you when you have all of these memories and experiences of past lives sort of integrated into your being? You know, does that make you an entirely new person? Is that like, you plus something? And there’s, there’s a few episodes that explore that really, really well. And it’s, it’s another thing that’s sort of an interesting commentary on the way that like, Star Trek has both been very successful and sometimes failed horribly in representation in that, like, a lot of times the characters that they used to do commentary on aspects of humanity that are different, are almost always aliens, right? And so if there’s like gender fuckery going on, it can’t be in a human because humans don’t do that. Right? Which is like, that is a way to get past the suits in the mid-to-late 90s. but that also leaves a lot of us feeling like, oh, okay, humans don’t do that. So does that just mean that I’m not one, I guess, because my experience is so different?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, I was gonna argue with you and point out that Adira in Star Trek Discovery is human, but they are also a Trill, they have a, they have a symbiont. So like, if that counts as being alien, then your theory still holds. Right?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, but also, I would point out that Star Trek is, we’re 56 years into Star Trek, and Adira was introduced a year ago. A year and a half ago. So, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
For sure.
CALLIE WRIGHT
But I mean, also, you know, think about Data, right? And there are, you know, I have so many autistic friends that see themselves in Data, right? And it’s like, like, I know, plenty of human beings that are just as confused by the majority of other human beings as Data was, right? But you can’t, you can’t be a human and be that different. Right? There has to be something that explains that difference about you. So, Oh, you’re an Android with no emotions. Oh, that means you don’t get social stuff. And then, you know, a bunch of my autistic friends are like, oh, yeah, Data’s obviously autistic, like, because that’s exactly how I experience the world. Right? But then that also, again, sort of has the knock on effect of being like, because there’s like really harmful stereotypes about autistic people, like they’re robots or whatever, right? And so, there’s sort of like a duality there of like, it’s really cool to see yourself. But it also sometimes doesn’t feel the best, the way that it works out.
[53:45]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did we talk about the Trill enough, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t, Oh, I, I have no, I have no, I can’t judge that. And I have no need for answering that. I just, I put it out there and you all said stuff. So that’s what I got what I needed from that.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Trill also have spots, and I love spots. And if I ever have fuck you money and know that I’m never going to need traditional employment again, I’m absolutely getting Trill spots tattooed from my forehead all the way down to my feet.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Just gonna be a thing.
KYLE GETZ
Trill spots? What are-
MIKE JOHNSON
They have this like, like, tiny leopard pattern looking spots, but like that go all the way down their body?
KYLE GETZ
Ooh!
MIKE JOHNSON
And like, their neck.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Right? Because again, you know, early, mid late 90s. Right? The makeup budgets, and this is you know, a weekly sci-fi show. They didn’t have the budgets like they have today. And so some of the makeup has to be a little bit more easy to do.
KYLE GETZ
They have the budget for a black pencil, like eyeliner or something.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Right, exactly. Well, they also this is an interesting thing they talk about in the fandom too, because the Trill that we were talking about, Odan, that Dr. Crusher falls in love with, had one of those things, very much like, alien-forehead-of-the-week kind of things going on, that was just like, oh this person’s forehead is different than the average humans, I bet they’re an alien and they tried that makeup on Terry Farrell during the test, during like test shooting of Deep Space 9, and she didn’t look great with it and so they’re like cool we’re just going to make the Trill look different. And that’s how they got the spots.
MIKE JOHNSON
Although, have you heard the theories that explain the in-canon differences between Odan and the other Trill that we’ve seen? Like, like Odan’s symbiont took over Rikers body, like control his body. This was not like a-
CALLIE WRIGHT
That’s true! Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was far more of a, like a parasitic kind of a relationship instead of a symbiotic one and, and the consciousness transfer fuckery wasn’t present. Anyway, I’ve heard the theory that the reason Odan looked different is because he’s a different kind of Trill. And I very much subscribe to that. And it makes me like Jadzia more.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, and also like, as a species that is, in some ways, so foundational to Star Trek, we really don’t know a ton about their society, right?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Like, we know that most Trill want to be joined, and can’t. We know that more Trill can be joined than is generally known because they don’t want the symbionts to become commodities and there aren’t enough symbionts to go around. We know their planet is like bluish purple ish. And we don’t really know much else about how their society works. And so yeah, I think I think there’s some interesting exploration to be done there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Glowy cave pools. Don’t forget glowy cave pools.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yes, I, we cannot forget the glowy cave pools with the weird, the weird people that tend them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Guardians.
[56:44]
KYLE GETZ
I already heard y’all mentioned Adira. I want to see if in Discovery, you can tell me the five explicitly queer characters that are part of the main cast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
We got Adira
CALLIE WRIGHT
We got Adira, and Gray. And Hugh, Hugh Culber and Paul Stamets. And Jett Reno.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Those are all the ones that were in this article. So if you have more, you’re the more up to date article then.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, well, I just, you can argue, I don’t know if Jett Reno counts as part of the main cast because she’s only been in one episode this season so far. I hope we’ll see her in the next one. But yeah, Star Trek Discovery,
KYLE GETZ
Is that Tig Notaro?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And apparently Tig Notaro is just super busy. Like, they keep asking her if she’ll be on more episodes.
Kyle Getz
Wait, Busy Phillips is in this?
MIKE JOHNSON
What?
KYLE GETZ
You said Tig is busy.
[Silence]
CALLIE WRIGHT
I didn’t get it either.
KYLE GETZ
It was hilarious.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great.
KYLE GETZ
It’s fine.
CALLIE WRIGHT
The one time he made the reference that neither of us get, this kind of puts us on the other side of the equation.
KYLE GETZ
I’m watching Cougartown right now so I got Busy Phillips on the brain.
[58:00]
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yes. Jett Reno is basically Tig Notaro in Star Trek. She’s delightful. And my understanding is that she was limited in this season, because I think her and her spouse or partner recently had a kid or something like that. And they were just like, super, super worried about COVID stuff. And so were just like, I’m staying home for most of this. And I’ll give you a little bit of my time. Which makes me sad, but I get it. You can’t be mad about it. I just love her character. And I love Tig Notaro so much. Yeah, Star Trek Discovery is queer as fuck, and I love it so much.
KYLE GETZ
How do you how do both of y’all feel about the especially like, knowing the history and then the previous, like seasons and TV shows and everything how you’ll feel about the queer representation in the modern day?
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s so much toxic, cis het white dude, energy in Star Trek fandom, and I drink their tears like wine. Like, they are so mad.
CALLIE WRIGHT
They are, they’re just so mad .
MIKE JOHNSON
And it makes me so happy. Like, there are large swathes of time in Discovery when like, the only cis straight white dude is an alien. Right? And like everybody else is something, add an adjective, right?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Whereas most of us who are part of any marginalized group are like, welcome to how we’ve felt the last 50 fucking years.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yep, season three and season four have been just absolutely fucking fantastic.
CALLIE WRIGHT
so I will say I was initially worried because, you know, they came out of the gate making Discovery, just queer as fuck. And what I was worried about at first is like, Oh, are they just going to make Discovery the queer one, and we’re not going to get it anywhere else, right? I was worried about that. But I also I think at the time, I didn’t realize how many queer people behind the scenes were involved in stuff. And then especially when Michelle Paradise took over as queer – queerrunner, showrunner.
KYLE GETZ
I like queer runner! She’s the queer runner .
CALLIE WRIGHT
Wow. Talk about a Freudian slip, Holy shit. When Michelle Paradise took over as showrunner, I’m fairly sure that she’s queer. So you know that that’s all, that’s all fine. But yeah, I mean, we got it other places too. We got, we got Raffi and Seven in Picard. Really fucking stoked about Mariner and Jennifer in Lower Decks. Oh god. Spoiler alert. Sorry, I should have spoiler alerted a long time ago because we’re talking about newer Star Trek now. I will say Discovery, a couple of times, for me, has veered a little too far into the kill your gays thing. I was fucking fur- okay, no, we’ve already spoiler alert. So I was fucking furious when Culber died in the first season.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay. Yeah, sure.
CALLIE WRIGHT
I legitimately because, I mean, I was so invested in those characters, right. And the way that he dies so violently and so suddenly and unexpectedly. I legitimately like I lost my breath when it happened. And I had to like pause and collect myself for a minute. And I don’t know, like, they say that the plan was always to bring him back. I hope that’s true.
KYLE GETZ
Do you worry that they’re just saying that because they’re like, oh, shit, we did that thing. And now we have to bring him back. Is that the…
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, that’s the worry that they just realized that they fucked up when the fandom lost their collective minds over it, rightfully so. And they’re like, oh, no, no, we’re gonna we’re gonna bring him back. And, you know, I don’t know. Like, they’ve said that. I hope that’s true. But then, like, almost all of season two was, for Culber and Stamets anyways, was dealing with the fallout of Culber having died, right? And so it’s like, again, we have this queer relationship where their interaction with each other almost exclusively on screen has to do with their trauma. And it’s like, you know, again, it’s not so much kill your gays, but traumatize your gays, and then that’s the only story they get, right? And in some ways, it’s like, that’s kind of what Discovery is, right? Discovery is a bunch of people having a lot of really big fucked up things happen to them and recovering from it. And so if they didn’t have drama to deal with, that would be kind of weird, too. But it would be nice if that wasn’t directly related to their queerness. Right. Um, and I felt the same way about Gray, like, we meet Gray and like five seconds later he dies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yep. yep.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And he’s not really dead. But I mean, he’s dead. And you know, and then he’s a ghost and you know, now, like, as soon as we’ve got him back, he moves to Trill. Right?
MIKE JOHNSON Right, yeah.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And so, like, I don’t know, and I, I have zero inside knowledge of this, of course. But I remember the day that they made the season five announcement for Star Trek Discovery that they were able to say, like, Hey, you know, we got greenlit for a fifth season, Blu del Barrio posted a frowny face emoji for a tweet on that same day. And I hope I’m not reading too much into that, that they won’t be on Season Five.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, wow. Interesting.
CALLIE WRIGHT
I’ll be real fucking sad if that turns out to be the case.
MIKE JOHNSON
A frowny face emoji. This is what it’s like to be a Star Trek fan, Kyle.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Emojis are everything.
KYLE GETZ
Emojis give it all away. Maybe they just got a bad order their local. Subway. what else, good or bad about the queer representation?
CALLIE WRIGHT
I will say that, you know, season three is where we meet Gray and Adira, and we get, for I think it’s like the first eight episodes, Adira is called she/her, and they’re like, not out as non-binary. When, way before the season premiered, they made a big deal about like, this is going to be Star Trek’s first non binary character using they/them pronouns played by a non binary actor. But like, for the first eight episodes, they’re calling Adira, she/her. And I’m like, okay, that feels weird, you know, knowing that they’re misgendering this character, but that also tells me like, so at some point this season, there’s going to be a coming out moment. And how do you handle that in the future? Right? And they’re, you know, there’s lots of discourse about like, you know, by that time in the future, nobody would have to come out and so it’d be weird if there’s a coming out moment. But also, I think, I think sometimes we give the world of Star Trek a little too much credit for it being utopian, and it’s, it’s not that unbelievable to me that transphobia of some kind follows into the 24th century and the 32nd century, especially after the Burn, when Earth has been through this major disaster. This major cultural trauma, like, people regress in situations like that. So that’s not so weird for me.
[1:05:07]
MIKE JOHNSON
Earth has like this like, like, sort of hardcore militaristic feeling.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Exactly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Dark, evil empire feel to it when they first arrive, and I buy that that might be some regressive things that happened to them, you know, politically, socially.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I was watching a compilation of queer and trans moments from throughout Star Trek history. And one of them seemed like a modern, I don’t know if it’s Discovery because I don’t know it well enough. But it seemed like a modern day where someone corrects someone else on their pronouns and corrected from she/her to, is that the moment you’re talking about?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yup, that’s the scene.
KYLE GETZ
How did that feel to you, seeing that?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Oh it was incredible. I, I really don’t understand why they had to wait eight episodes to make it happen. But the moment itself, I thought was great. And I actually, I enjoyed season three, a lot more the second time through because I knew they handled that moment well. And also, I found out that Blu themself actually had a lot of input into Adira’s story arc, because the writers, like really, really wanted to get it right. And so you know, they did a bunch of consultation with GLAAD on their, like media stuff. And then Blu themselves had a lot of input because, Blu was actually cast in Discovery before they were out as non-binary to like, their family. And so if I’m, if I’m remembering the interviews that I’ve read right, like, they were actually like, okay, so like, I’ve got to come out to my family before the news comes out that I’ve been Star Trek.
KYLE GETZ
Oh shit!
CALLIE WRIGHT
Because I don’t want them to hear, and so like, they kind of wanted Adira’s story to mirror Blu’s in that way. Which I fully respect and like, I wish I had done that reading ahead of time to know that going in. But it was just I mean, it was so perfect, right, like, it’s Stamets and Adira, they’re in engineering. And Stamets is kind of like bragging on Adira about how fast they do stuff. And then you just see this look on their face. And it’s a look that I feel like anyone who’s ever had to correct someone on their pronouns. It’s a look that those people all know and all recognize. And even I mean, I feel like I was, I feel like I was like, half drunk while I was watching this. And I was just like, oh, shit, this is it. This is where it’s coming. Because I knew that look, right?
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing that you knew, and that’s, wow.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, that’s what it means to have a non-binary actor play that moment, because that person knows what that feels like. Right? They know what that look is like, they know what living in that moment feels like. And I was just like, shit. Yeah, this is it. This is you know, this is where it’s coming. And, and it’s just very quickly like they I’ve never felt like a she or a her. I’ve always felt like a they. And Stamets was just like, okay, and that’s the end of it. And then I feel like, you know, I feel like Stamets just like used whatever Discovery has for like, Outlook or whatever, just send an email like hey, my kids pronouns are they/them I’ll fucking kill you if you misgender them. Send. Because after that, it’s just not come up. It’s just been a very casual they/them.
MIKE JOHNSON
So one of my criticisms, and I’m interested in your take here. One of my criticisms is that Anthony Rapp at the very least, if not Stamets himself, over emphasizes they now, enough that I noticed and it bothers me. Do you have the same reaction?
CALLIE WRIGHT
I don’t, exactly and,
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay,
CALLIE WRIGHT
let me ask how, how caught up are you on Discovery? Have you seen the newest episode?
MIKE JOHNSON
I have, yes.
CALLIE WRIGHT
So, you know, he gives Adira, that explanation about how he’s just like, listen, I know, I’m just going to be too much because I’m a proud dad. And that’s, that’s kind of the vibe that I’ve gotten from it, is he’s just like, proud queer dad just going a little overboard, because that’s what dads do sometimes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
CALLIE WRIGHT
That’s my vibe with it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
CALLIE WRIGHT
I don’t, I wouldn’t call that a bad take. I just don’t think I fully agree with it, if that makes sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. Yeah.
CALLIE WRIGHT
It’s just that overly supportive Dad vibe.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m projecting my own insecurities. Like I try, I try really hard to get pronouns right. And when I fuck them up, I feel bad. And like then sometimes I find myself over emphasizing someone’s pronouns when they differ from how they present, traditionally, right?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Right, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So then I see that in that actor, or in that character, or both, and it gives me discomfort about my own… eh.
KYLE GETZ
I didn’t have to, I didn’t have to be the, you just saved me. You just took the uncomfortable moment yourself. Yeah, you do sometimes, especially with they/them pronouns, you sometimes hit those kind of hard and like and you know, that may be ensuring you get them right but I noticed that in you, so that was interesting that you noticed that in someone else.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
CALLIE WRIGHT
It’s actually taken me some time to were like, anytime Adira’s in an episode I have to kind of like brace myself because, still hearing someone referred to casually as they/them in StarTrek is such a fucking big deal to me. Every single time it happens I want to start crying. And it’s literally like just at this point of season four now, like next week is the last episode of season four where it’s like, I don’t want to like lose my shit every single time it happens.
[1:10:35]
KYLE GETZ
Okay to bring it back to me. Have you seen or watched any of And Just Like that?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Nuh uh.
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
The Sex and the City reboot?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Oh, no, I’ve, I’ve never really been a fan. And the few people that I know that do don’t have very nice things to say about the reboot.
KYLE GETZ
Anything, specifically about the, I have opinions about the non-binary representation but like, not being non-binary like very much recognize my like, I guess even on news outlets that report on it. I don’t know what, have you heard things about non-binary representations specifically?
CALLIE WRIGHT
No, the friends I’ve had they’ve just said that they hate it and thought it was ridiculous. I don’t think I I don’t remember reading any like specific things about like, why or anything.
KYLE GETZ
Them, I know on them.us they talked about like, “And Just Like That we got mediocre non-binary representation,” was kind of their headline of that.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And obviously, like, I can’t speak to that, because I’ve not seen the show and I’ve not really seen you know, that discourse. I can’t, I can’t opine specifically on that. But I think a lot of times what gets critiqued as bad representation is more a commentary on lack of representation. Because there is obviously like, there’s no one character that’s going to represent the entirety of the queer trans experience, right? And the problem is that we have so few trans characters, and so few, and I mean, I think we’re doing better on both sides of the equation. But we’re just so far behind on both, that any representation we get feels like bad representation or insufficient representation. Because it’s like, okay, well, there’s like one version of queerness. But there’s like fifteen other versions of queerness that I don’t see in this person. And I think that can sometimes lead us to putting unfair expectations on one character to be all things queer or all things trans. Right? And so I think there’s, there’s a level of… it’s fair to critique that. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that, like, that’s bad representation for that, right? And I don’t, I mean I’m not one to tell people to, like, be patient, right? Because fuck that. It’s been long enough, there’s no excuse for us to, for us to not exist in the ways that we still don’t exist in media. Because there’s, I mean, there’s even, you know, what about what about trans men, right, like, we see, we see sort of like, femme leaning non-binary people pretty often, in the, the non-binary representation that exists, usually centers, that kind of presentation and that kind of experience, or trans women, of course, and very specifically, usually, white trans women, very cis normative white trans women. And like, I don’t want to say that that shouldn’t exist, right? Because those people exist and their experiences are valid. But it just seems like those are the only kinds of people that a large swath of the media are willing to, to lift up and put forward. But that’s, we only usually see like, skinny stereotypically attractive white people in TV show en mass, right? And so like, is that really a queer trans problem? Or is that more of
MIKE JOHNSON
Mass media,
CALLIE WRIGHT
Structural racism or structural fatphobia problem. And, I mean, it’s, of course, it’s all of those things at the same time, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I, that’s interesting. Because that’s, I think about this with the Kill your Gays, like that, that concept, to me, there’s part of it of like, I’m okay, if a movie has a gay character that commits suicide. But it’s the fact that those are the like, that’s the only kind of thing, or that it’s shown so often. I’m not upset that gays are dying in movies. I’m upset that that’s the majority of the representation. If we had one in every 100, like straight people do or whatever, then like that, that, that media in and on itself, is not the problem. And I think you’re speaking, I was thinking very narrowly about that one specific trope, and you’re helping me kind of broaden that to just, how do I view media representation in general and not putting too much pressure on one thing to be everything, which I like that.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, it’s big and complicated. But I mean, also, I think you can tell if people are making genuine effort, right? Like, I feel like, you know, on on Discovery and in the Star Trek franchise more broadly, like the people who are running things now, I think really are interested in telling more broad stories of queerness and transness. Right? I mean, we even have, you know, again, spoiler alert, you know, at the end of the last season of Lower Decks, we have the enemies to lovers trope happening with the Jennifer/Mariner, right. Which is, which is fantastic. Like, I’ve been rooting for that all fucking year. And it was so great that it happened. And it was just, it was very cool for that to feel normal. It’s like we hate each other. But I’ve kind of been a dick to you because I have a crush on you and maybe do you wanna date? And it’s like, oh, like we get to do that sort of like messy TV trope, but with queer people now. That’s wonderful.
[1:16:05]
KYLE GETZ
Um, what else haven’t we talked about about queer Star Trek that we need to mention?
CALLIE WRIGHT
I mean, I feel very, very strongly that we need to just if nothing else, give a quick shout out to the gay horny space whales from Lower Decks.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Matt and Kimolu from Cetacean Ops.
Kyle Getz
I’m really excited that this is in the thing that you said I should watch because that’s, this is adding up that maybe I could care about them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, so way back in the day, Next Generation, era, there was a technical manual that was printed and came out that was like the schematics of The Enterprise. And in one of the maps, it says, “Cetacean Ops” and everybody’s like, well, what the fuck is that? And that started this whole fandom thing of like, there are dolphins on the enterprise that are like crew members, like, like now humans and dolphins kick it with each other. Or, it’s not dolphins it’s whales. Cetaceans, right?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, yeah, but but there are there are dolphins.
KYLE GETZ
You’re saying the word “cetacean” like that’s a word I should know just in English. Is that an English word?
MIKE JOHNSON
For whales.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, so, but now like, that’s expensive. You can’t do that on a syndicated television show. You can’t, but you sure can in Lower Decks.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Well, did you see Seaquest DSV? Come on. They had no excuse.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true, that’s true.
CALLIE WRIGHT
They had Darwin the Dolphin.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s true, that horrible porpoise.
CALLIE WRIGHT
There are two, there are two references on screen in Next Generation to Cetacean Ops. One in Yesterday’s Enterprise you hear someone being called the Cetacean Ops when Tasha Yarr and Lieutenant Castillo are in “10 forward” talking, you hear someone over the intercom being called to Cetacean Ops.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nice.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And you can hear very clearly they’re saying Cetacean Ops, but for some reason in the caption it says “Station Ops.” That’s not, that’s not what that person said. But also in the episode where, Oh, God, what’s it called? I forget what it’s called, But the episode that Famke Janssen, I think is in, the supermodel. She’s in stasis, and they’re like delivering her for this arranged marriage thing. And the Ferengi are trying to steal her. And the Ferengi like, go after this Ambassador person trying to convince him to give them this person. And Jordy grabs one of the Ferengi and does the wingman thing of like, Oh, I’m gonna redirect you and get you away. And as the sound is fading out, you can hear him say, “Oh, have you seen the dolphins?” You can hear it very clear, like as the sound is fading out. And so there’s onscreen references and the technical manual. And so Cetacean Ops has been a long running thing. And they reference it a couple of times in Lower Decks. And then we see it and we meet Matt and Kimolu, the two beluga whales who are the Cetacean Ops crew members on Lower Decks and they’re very, very gay and very, very horny.
KYLE GETZ
This is hilarious.
CALLIE WRIGHT
It’s the best thing. I screamed when I realized that’s what we were doing. I screamed, I scared the shit out of my dog. And I can see, because I’m watching most of it with friends over zoom. And so it’s like I’ve got you know it up on my TV, and then my laptop in front of me with Zoom and I start screaming and then I can see my friends notice, like, what the fuck are they doing? Yeah, completely lost it.
KYLE GETZ
Where better to end our conversation than gay horny whale ops?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. I agree. I agree. I mean, there’s so much more to talk about. Of course.
KYLE GETZ
We can talk about a little bit more in our Patreon segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
I have some tweets. I’m gonna read to you about my favorite moments, or favorite tweets and get your reaction on that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, cool. Callie, you have time for that?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, great. So should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break!
KYLE GETZ
Break!
[BREAK MUSIC: MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
[1:20:16]
KYLE GETZ
You can start.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back!
CALLIE JOHNSON
We’re back!
KYLE GETZ
[Laughing] Thank you! We’re going to do our Gayest to Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We are going to do our Gayest to Straightest. But first, Callie, where can people find out more about you, what you’re up to, tell us all the things.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yes, I am @CallieGetsIt on Twitter, C A L L I E G E T S I T on Twitter. My podcast is called Queersplaining. And you can of course listen to it on all of the podcast platforms in all of the places. And I also have a Patreon, it’s part of how I pay my bills. So, you know, if you like cool queer content. It is a, it’s a queer storytelling show. Not really anything more specific than that. But I just find cool queer and trans people to tell their stories and try to give them a platform to do that with a sympathetic audience as opposed to like mainstream media that likes to sensationalize and only tell one kind of queer and trans story not for queer trans audiences. So yeah, I try to not be the thing that annoys most of us about queer and trans stories in the mainstream media.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome. Yeah, be sure to check it out. Our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We are on Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, @GayishPodcast
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages, leave us voicemails, is 5855-GAYISH that’s 585-542-9474, standard rates apply.
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882, Seattle, Washington, 98109. We got some stuff to open we’ll do it next week because
KYLE GETZ
We need to open shit, Okay. But now, but I want it now, Mike.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Alright.
KYLE GETZ
We can open it after this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright
KYLE GETZ
I hope it wasn’t like a fish or something.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh no, no no no. A puppy! Someone sent us a puppy, Kyle.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Oh no!
MIKE JOHNSON
I mentioned all of our tour dates at the top of the show, but just one more time real quick. We’ll be at the Treefort Music Festival in Boise, Idaho on Saturday, March the 26th at 4pm Mountain Time. We’ll be in Portland, Oregon at the Hop Capital Brewery, April 3. That’s Sunday, April 3 at 1pm pacific and we will be at the Hula Hula in Seattle, Washington, Sunday, April the 10th at 2pm Pacific
KYLE GETZ
Gayishpodcast.com/live
[1:22:30]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. Gayest and Straightest, I’ll go first.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Do it!
MIKE JOHNSON
The Straightest thing about me this week, we were headed to Hop Capitol Brewery this morning to make some beer for that, for the birthday beer, anniversary beer. And we went, we went, we went to Starbucks. And I got the sausage and cheddar breakfast sandwich. Which I think that’s the only thing that straight dudes are allowed to eat off the Starbucks menu.
KYLE GETZ
Because mine was like, fucking Gouda, or you know, something that’s like, I’m fancy cheese!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it’s just the most like, butch breakfast option at Starbucks. The Gayest thing about me this week. I don’t know if you saw Kyle, but I was wearing a scarf.
KYLE GETZ
I did see you wearing a scarf!
CALLIE WRIGHT
Fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
It had colors.
MIKE JOHNSON
I had my scarf on the whole day. How about you, go for it.
KYLE GETZ
I thought you were going to use making beer as-
CALLIE WRIGHT
I thought that’s where that was going, too.
KYLE GETZ
I’m going to, Okay, I’m going to use that. I’m going to save this one for next time because it’s still going to be gay and straight next week. My my straightest is making beer.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure. You know, making beers like every straight guy’s fantasy.
KYLE GETZ
And the gayest part is like, of course it is a mango kiwi blonde
CALLIE WRIGHT
Out-fucking-standing.
KYLE GETZ
Because they, we’ve got to make something that Kyle might like. And of course, still like, being the one there that everyone’s like, “Oh look it’s hops!” as if I’m supposed to like that hops are bad, they smell bad, and I don’t want to put this into this liquid and make it worse! I just… yeah, so that’s mine, Callie, what about you?
CALLIE WRIGHT
Okay, so the the straightest thing that I’ve done in recent memory, I’ll just cop to the fact that it wasn’t this week, but the straightest thing that I have done lately was paying attention to the Super Bowl. Because I live in Cincinnati and the Cincinnati Bengals were in the Super Bowl. And even though I don’t, I mean, I can kind of appreciate the game of football. I don’t really care that much about the NFL. But like, my city was in the Super Bowl, so it’s fucking inescapable and basically the entire city of Cincinnati shut down, like restaurants shut down, gas stations closed, all this stuff it was like a whole thing. And so even though I wasn’t watching it, I was actually watching Star Trek while it was on. But I would, I would kind of say like, I do kind of wonder if they’re winning, I’d pull up my phone just like look at the score. And apparently they were winning until like the very last minute and lost, which, I don’t know. I mean, I’m sad for my friends that care about it. Because I like it when my friends are happy about stuff. I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
When I was in college I hated going to the football games. I went to school in Texas, but I hated going to the games. I only cared if my team won, because my friends would come home happy and we’d have fun and drink and stuff. And when they lost, they’d be sad. And I would rather have my friends happy.
MIKE JOHNSON
They would still drink though, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, but there’d be like, sad drinking and like, then we just go to sleep. Like it was, yeah.
CALLIE WRIGHT
And gayest thing I’ve done, and this was actually just a couple of days ago, was sitting at a table with a group of my roller derby teammates, and telling them completely uncensored stories of all of my sexual escapades of the last few months, because the other gayest thing about me lately is that I am living out my best slutty life in my mid to late 30s, as opposed to my early 20s.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
Do you have any slutty details that you’re willing to drop on us now?
CALLIE WRIGHT
I had my first threesome.
KYLE GETZ
[Gasp]
CALLIE WRIGHT
At… okay, I won’t I won’t give personally identifiable details. I had my first threesome and the other two people involved. One of them was a guy who was doing Captain Kirk cosplay.
KYLE GETZ
Ahh!
CALLIE WRIGHT
The other, the girl who was in it was fully made up as a Klingon.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent.
KYLE GETZ
Oh my God.
CALLIE WRIGHT
I may not have said vulgar things in Klingon while things were happening.
MIKE JOHNSON
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. I’m so glad you asked that question Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, we’re cutting the full episode and just playing this portion, maybe on repeat for like – wait, what, can you say some of the dirty things in Klingon? What are dirty things-
CALLIE WRIGHT
So a fun one that you might be able to say that I, that I sometimes use is [Dirty Klingon]. And that is a command, saying “Hit me.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh!
KYLE GETZ
Oh shit! Definitely need to write this down.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, what’s Klingon for “choke me?” That’s one Kyle really wants.
KYLE GETZ
That’s true.
CALLIE WRIGHT
I don’t know the word for choke off the top of my head. I know there is one but it’s not coming to mind for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
No worries.
KYLE GETZ
I’ll just have to say it in English.
CALLIE WRIGHT
That and also, like, later that same night, ended up hooking up with someone else in an abandoned bar in a casino.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. This needs to be our next episode.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m so proud of you.
CALLIE WRIGHT
See the problem is, like I’m a super open book, and I’ll talk about this kind of stuff with anyone. But I don’t know how discreet the other people want to be. And so I don’t want to, like, violate their boundaries or anything.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, well, the good thing is usually I don’t know first names, so I don’t have any, like, I can’t violate any of their personal identifiable information. Like they had a cute torso on Scruff. I don’t know what you want me to say. Yeah. Uh, those are perfect. Thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes, thank you.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Of course!
MIKE JOHNSON
Callie, thank you so much for being on and nerding out with me, I really appreciate it. I think Kyle even enjoyed it which, that takes doing.
KYLE GETZ
Um, yeah. I mean, I was in and out, there are some moments where I was in and out. And you know, that’s par for the course though.
CALLIE WRIGHT
Yeah, it’s fine. I think you did a great job. And, yeah, it’s great.
KYLE GETZ
I would also like to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Josh Copeland, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, Anonymous, James Barrow, Explosive Lasagna, Kristopher Farrell, Jamie Pugh, Kevin Henderson, Tipsy McStumbles, Donald Lynskey, Tomas B, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachaturian, Jerome York, Cian & Javi. Um, thank you all. We appreciate you. We appreciate your money, your patronage, your Patreonage. And yeah, check out Queersplaining.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, that’s it! This has been Gayish from the Chris Khachaturian studios. I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz until next week, Be Butch, be fabulous, be you! See you next week.
MIKE JOHNSON
See you next week.
KYLE GETZ
Klingon bye!
CALLIE WRIGHT
[Klingon]
[Outro Music]
CALLIE WRIGHT
Fuck, boys, surprised we aren’t taking a break right now! Letterkenny fans anybody?
Men’s makeup has made strides in availability and acceptability, but lip gloss is a perfect example of how, even in makeup, men’s products are expected to be practical, subtle, and, of course, not too feminine. We talk about stereotypes we’re ashamed to have and the rules we wish we could break.
In this episode: News- 4:17 || Main Topic (Lip Gloss)- 13:47 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:00:51
On the Patreon bonus segment, Mike shares the lip gloss drama of Kylie Jenner v. Trixie Mattel. Get bonus audio segments every week for $5/mo., plus lots of other perks, at patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
