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Sit. Stay. Now, play!…this episode. Our guest Pup Kero teaches Mike and Kyle that pup play is more than just a kink.

Support us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/gayishpodcast.

Transcript for podcast episode “Gayish: 124 Pups (w/ Pup Kero)”

INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]

When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.

MIKE JOHNSON

Hello everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.

KYLE GETZ

The podcast that reminds you to air dry your jockstraps because your hole may be stretched out, but your elastic shouldn’t be.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh no.

KYLE GETZ

That’s just a good housekeeping tip, you know

MIKE JOHNSON

Buy quality jockstrap, so that shit doesn’t happen.

KYLE GETZ

No, you can’t throw it in the dryer that like- it’s delicate, it’s delicate material that you need to air dry.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, I’m not delicate. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz

MIKE JOHNSON

And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today

KYLE GETZ

We’re going to talk about

MIKE JOHNSON

Awooooooooo!

KYLE GETZ

pups

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re going to talk about pups.

KYLE GETZ

If Mike got his howls out

MIKE JOHNSON

Rrrrrrrrrruff ruff

KYLE GETZ

I actually think that’s legit what- Okay, we’re doing this because we do not necessarily like understand it or have done it so like, yeah, pup stuff, this is gonna be real interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON

Apparently doing it doggy style doesn’t count. There’s more to it.

KYLE GETZ

Ther e’s definitely more to it, which actually, I’m gonna fill you in on shortly.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oooooh hot, okay.

KYLE GETZ

Hahaha

MIKE JOHNSON

But first

KYLE GETZ

But first, I would like to thank two Patreon supporters. One, Mike, I’m just going to let you know you’re gonna have to avoid the obvious.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay

KYLE GETZ

Because we’re smart.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay

KYLE GETZ

And not obvious. David A Wood.

[pause]

MIKE JOHNSON

I have nothing to say. That name has broken me.

KYLE GETZ

Thanks, David A Wood. You’ve ruined Mike. Or he would want you to. Wink. And then Chase Carrico.

MIKE JOHNSON

Are you- how, like, what- How sure are you that that’s how you say that?

KYLE GETZ

You know like 68%

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

How else would you- CarRIco? CARaco?

MIKE JOHNSON

CarRIco?

KYLE GETZ

If I say every possible version and then later I could be like how do you say this? I don’t care enough. Chase.

MIKE JOHNSON

Chase me around the room

KYLE GETZ

C.C.

MIKE JOHNSON

C.C.

KYLE GETZ

Chase C.

MIKE JOHNSON

Great.

KYLE GETZ

Thank you. We appreciate you and your money.

MIKE JOHNSON

As the German say, donkey shit.

KYLE GETZ

Also but first

MIKE JOHNSON

Also but first?

KYLE GETZ

News?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah! Let’s do the news. One-

KYLE GETZ

You acted surprised.

MIKE JOHNSON

Well, we didn’t do the news the last episode

KYLE GETZ

That’s true. That’s true.

MIKE JOHNSON

And I forget if we did it the episode before that. I just been like, do people miss the news? Nobody said anything. So here we are.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, but fuck it. You’re gonna have to hear some news. So.

KYLE GETZ

Haha.

MIKE JOHNSON

So, so, so, whew, goodness.

KYLE GETZ

What?

MIKE JOHNSON

Heather Matuszek, 32 years old, was arrested Wednesday, so this would have been like almost two weeks ago now, on two counts of lewd and lascivious molestation. She is a youth leader at the Clearwater Community Church. She gained the trust of a 15 year old girl so they could spend more time together. While at the girls home, Matuszek allegedly spent the night and slept in the same bed as the girl and was rubbing the girl’s body and she felt limp and paralyzed. So, apparently, like lesbians can do creepy shit, too.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, she’s not just a pedophile, but also like a verified lesbian.

MIKE JOHNSON

No.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m, I’m injecting that into the story.

KYLE GETZ

Got it.

MIKE JOHNSON

But she’s a female youth group leader that did freaky shit with a 15 year old girl.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, yeah. But I also think it’s like- that doesn’t alone make her a pedophile- er- sorry. Yes. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Before Dan corrects me. Yeah, that doesn’t make her a lesbian like, like abusing children of any kind just makes you a pedophile. That doesn’t necessarily make you a lesbian.

MIKE JOHNSON

Although, I would take issue with calling a 15 year old a child in the same way that pedophiles are

KYLE GETZ

Didn’t you teach us about what- isn’t there a different word?

MIKE JOHNSON

Pederasty

KYLE GETZ

Yeah okay, well, she’s peder-nasty.

MIKE JOHNSON

Pet-her-nasty.

KYLE GETZ

Ew nevermind, I didn’t mean it that way. I don’t like this.

MIKE JOHNSON

So now here’s the broken hymen on top of this cake, the cherry on this cake.

KYLE GETZ

I hate that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Matuszek is the owner and operator of a Chick-fil-A at Westfield Countryside Mall in Clearwater, Florida

KYLE GETZ

Sure. So like, both involved in the church and owns a Chick-fil-A?

MIKE JOHNSON

And molested a girl. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And, and we’re the ones that are gross and disgusting. Church, stop it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah, don’t- Yeah, don’t eat chicken and don’t eat pussy

KYLE GETZ

Don’t eat underage pussy. Eat pussy your own age.

MIKE JOHNSON

I just- it’s just one of those things that- like this is an interesting twist on what is largely just a not surprising story, right?

KYLE GETZ

It’s like shootings now, like “church member abuses child” and you’re like, “yeah, yeah, that’s true.” But still hasn’t- Church still is a functioning, running organization that everyone’s like, “that’s fine.” Or not like, “that’s fine,” but it’s just like, “but God is bigger than all of us.” And like, stupid.

MIKE JOHNSON

Boo.

KYLE GETZ

Boo you.

MIKE JOHNSON

Boo.

FUCKING DAN

To clarify, a pederast is someone who acts on their sexual attraction to children. A pedophile is someone who has attraction to children. An ephebophile is someone who is sexually attracted to adolescents, which would be the case here.

MIKE JOHNSON

I remember saying that word and sort of understanding it.

KYLE GETZ

Ephebophile, ephebophile, ephebophile, ephebophile [continues]

MIKE JOHNSON

[singing] In the pussy, the little puss-

MIKE JOHNSON

[talking] No

FUCKING DAN

Oh no!

KYLE GETZ

Oh man, I hate us.

FUCKING DAN

New ringtone.

KYLE GETZ

Okay,

MIKE JOHNSON

Do you wanna talk about pups?

KYLE GETZ

Let’s go ahead and get out of this situation we’re in right here. Let’s talk about pups. So,

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

We’re gonna have a guest on

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah

KYLE GETZ

in just a hot minute.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

First, I want to tell you about this study that I have.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

There are- there aren’t studies about pup play, I think it’s like, people are just learning that it’s a thing like especially in the research world.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So all we have is this- more like interviews with a small number of people, so like that’s kind of all we have to go on.

MIKE JOHNSON

Here’s- Is it new? Like maybe it was going on and I just didn’t notice it or it wasn’t very big yet but like when I came out 10 years ago, I don’t remember seeing pups or people in pup hoods running around the gay bars and now I see them on the regular

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I mean, I’m guessing it’s a little bit of both. I mean, like there’ve now been news stories about them, like I saw this article in Vice when I was like looking up stuff about this. This study I’m going to say says that this is never empirically been studied before. Granted, shit like trans issues, bi issues have been around for forever, and we still don’t research them, s o that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been around but at least it’s like I think now starting to emerge into popular culture in a way or like entering kind of the- the zeitgeist of the non pupsters.

MIKE JOHNSON

I love it when you speak German to me.

KYLE GETZ

So this is a- called the- “An exploratory study of a new kink activity”- and again- “new kink activity.” This study came out in 2017 by- it’s UK-based and I love their names: Liam Wignall and Mark McCormack,

MIKE JOHNSON

Sir Liam.

KYLE GETZ

Sir Liam and Mark. Those are the most British names ever. They studied 30 gay or bisexual men in the UK, who were all 18 to 35, caucasian, cis-gender men. So there’s no data- there’s not like specific data, but there are a few like words and definitions and things that stood out that I wanted to tell you about

MIKE JOHNSON

okay

KYLE GETZ

Because I just love them. I love the term- like I might get into pup play just so I can use fun like turn of phrases. It’s really enjoyable. Okay, so they defined- just so everyone knows- pup play, or puppy play, as a form of role play where adults adopt characteristics that mimic the behavior of young dogs. Normally framed as a kinky sexual activity, individuals tend to adopt a submissive role imitating the posture of a dog and wear a collar and other gear associated with owning a dog. So that’s just the, “here’s what it is.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Sure.

KYLE GETZ

That’s not fun. I mean, that’s just FYI-sies everybody. The first fun definition that I learned about is called the “pup headspace,”

MIKE JOHNSON

Oooh.

KYLE GETZ

which is- one of the participants in the study said it was, quote, a basic mindset where you forget or ignore the human thinking part of the brain and go more instinctual. Which like, part of this like, that sounds nice. Like it’s like doing improv, like when you like, you’re just like, I’m

[pause]

MIKE JOHNSON

Go ahead.

KYLE GETZ

You- why did you just wince?

MIKE JOHNSON

It reminds me of your description of what it was like to do mushrooms.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

But like

KYLE GETZ

Oh my god, I’m just like, I don’t have anxiety. I’m just kind of free and kind of-

MIKE JOHNSON

I just didn’t know if you wanted to talk about that.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, well, I can always- I don’t know. I loved mushrooms. I wish I existed in my life on shrooms. It was a beautiful, beautiful- okay, um, but yeah, it sounds so nice just to be like, just do what you want and what comes naturally and just stop thinking. Like someone- I didn’t write this down, but someone was like, you don’t have to worry about your interview coming up because right now you’re a dog.

MIKE JOHNSON

Right.

KYLE GETZ

And dogs don’t worry about that.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

So other ways people describe this as “pupping out.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

KYLE GETZ

I should have put on my pop filter before doing this. “Pup brain” or “pup mode.”

MIKE JOHNSON

“Pup mode.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I like- I like “pupping out,” that’s my favorite one.

MIKE JOHNSON

“Pup mode” sounds like something an Animorph does.

KYLE GETZ

Well, “pupping out” sounds like you’re whoring out your pup. I’m gonna pup you out other- Anyway, um, other people said that pup space was a much deeper form of headspace. You’re so immersed in pup play that they discussed an alternative consciousness.

MIKE JOHNSON

Is that a social network for pups, Pupspace?

KYLE GETZ

It was like 15 years ago. Mike, get with it. Now it’s Pupster.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, okay, great.

KYLE GETZ

When you do pup activities with- oh, btw everyone we’re like talking about some specifics. You’ll get to learn even more about how it feels for one specific pup that we talked to on this episode. So don’t worry, you’ll learn more about it. But when people do pup play together with others, they call it “pupping out together.” Oh, I already used that one. So pupping out, maybe that’s why I liked it because it could include multiple people. And when bringing up the comparison to zoophilia, the attraction to animals

MIKE JOHNSON

Aminals.

KYLE GETZ

One participant said “It’s ludicrous. It’s people. If a horse puts on a hat and dresses up as a man, they can’t get a job.” Fair, fair point. I just love that visualization like a horse clippity cloppying is like [whinnies] “I want to be an accountant.” And they’re like, “horse, you can’t even press the buttons on a calculator.”

MIKE JOHNSON

Wait a minute, Mr. Ed could do math.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, wow. Don’t be horse-ist, I guess. So this is leading to, several participants use the term “bio-pup” to distinguish themselves from biological dogs?

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh, yeah yeah yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Which that reminds me of bio-queens when we talked about like drag queens there’s, you know

MIKE JOHNSON

yeah

KYLE GETZ

Men, cis-men who dresses in drag as women,

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah

KYLE GETZ

And then there are bio-queens people who are- have vaginas.

FUCKING DAN

More recently, I’ve heard that the term bio-queen has been considered a little bit transphobic and so the term for a cis-gender woman or a transgender woman who does drag, I’ve heard hyper-queen. They’re sort of doing a hyper-stylized version of femininity,

KYLE GETZ

and they’re probably on coke. Great.

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, so many. Yeah. Okay. So much about drag just looks like how people dress in the south, women dress in the south. Like,

KYLE GETZ

It’s all just imitating like a belle of the ball from the south. That’s true. Everyone was just wants to get that apple pie.

MIKE JOHNSON

gross.

KYLE GETZ

What was I talking- What is that a metaphor for?

MIKE JOHNSON

Apple pie?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Is that a butthole?

MIKE JOHNSON

I just think about American Pie.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Fucking a-

MIKE JOHNSON

Fucks a pie.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. I’ll be your pie tonight.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, great.

KYLE GETZ

Ew. Okay. Lastly, in the topic of consent, I somehow really liked this, everyone was like, “no, it’s not an issue.” So one person said, quote, you don’t really need to have a discussion about what is okay to do and what isn’t, there seems to be a mutual understanding of what is acceptable. If it crosses those boundaries, then you just bark at the pup or handler or move away. Which, okay, no victim blaming, like, it’s like people that assault or be aggressive or rape or whatever people are, are disgusting, gross. But I also think at the same time, us humans can just bark at someone we want to approach us and that’d be a pretty good response too. That would, I feel like, really throw someone off, so, you know, if you’re starting to get assaulted and go on it, just bark like a dog.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah

KYLE GETZ

Freak their shit out.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like you’re at the grocery store. And the line is too long in front of you. I bet if you start barking, a lot of people like go somewhere else and let you through.

KYLE GETZ

Then again, the one person that might be walking towards you is the store manager to like walk you out. So it just depends on how good you are at the scanning if you could kind of get yourself checked out before you’re escorted out, before you’re forced to leave. So those are just- this was a really interesting study that I like read the whole thing and just about the conversations, it’s so interesting, but actually think a lot of what they explored are similar to what we explored when talking to our guest who’s going to be on who is Pup Kero.

MIKE JOHNSON

Kero Foster Gray.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah

MIKE JOHNSON

He said that was something we could call him.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. Yeah. Because, like pup names, and people have their own names, and we’ll- we go into that with him. But, Pup Kero-

MIKE JOHNSON

I mean, there’s, there’s the name that’s on your driver’s license, and there’s the name that you want to go by, and pups have pup names and his name is Kero, but he’s also deaf, so if anything about the next part after we come back from the break sounds a little odd, it’s because we have an interpreter who is speaking, so there’s often pauses and

KYLE GETZ

Just different than the rest of our episodes. And yeah, so the voice you hear is-

MIKE JOHNSON

Equally awkward, as normal

KYLE GETZ

Yes. As with any guests, we were uncomfortable and drank, so that helped. No, but yeah, so the voice you’re hearing is the voice of the interpreter who is signing to Pup Kero.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. Did we say enough about that?

KYLE GETZ

And it was, I dunno, it was a lot of fun. We already recorded it. So I really liked the conversation. I learned a lot. I had some pup-iphanies.

KYLE GETZ

See, I might be-

MIKE JOHNSON

You also got hit on hard.

KYLE GETZ

That’s true. I wasn’t mad. We had met before, though, and had got hit on hard there, so maybe like, I wonder in the pup community, maybe I’m just like a golden pub.

MIKE JOHNSON

Maybe.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I’m a pup now. Ruff, ruff, I’m a dog, ruff. Ruff.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh god. So should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, let’s take a break.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break. A potty break?

KYLE GETZ

Pup break? Poop break? Pee break?

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m going to throw this ball and see what happens.

Break Music [MIKE JOHNSON singing]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break.

MIKE JOHNSON

So are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back.

KYLE GETZ

We’re back. We’re talking about pups, and we are here with Kero. Thank you for being here.

[Note: when PUP KERO is indicated below, PUP KERO’s side of the conversation is being spoken on the podcast by an ASL translator, and the translator’s words were transcribed as follows.]

PUP KERO

You are welcome. I am so glad to be here.

KYLE GETZ

Awesome.

MIKE JOHNSON

So I don’t know where to start even.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Why don’t you just start by telling us about how you got into the pup community?

PUP KERO

Well, I would say probably seven years ago, I met some pup. I mean, I was like, looking at these people, I’m like, “What is going on?” I mean, I didn’t join them right away. I was kind of just observing from the edges. I just got so fascinated and drawn in with it. I got to know them a little bit more, and you know, we did some petting sessions and they sat down and I’m like, “Why are you sitting here?” and they’re like, “Pet me,” and I’m like, “okay, yes, I’ll pet you.” And then we kind of got into it and I just fell head over heels and I kind of became a pup. It was really awkward in the beginning, you know, just learning your way through it. And then was thinking about it some more, and I came up with a pup name for myself, K-E-R-O, Kero. And I just dove headfirst and I decided later on to buy my own hood that fit my personality.

KYLE GETZ

Okay

PUP KERO

And I just, I loved it. I just loved it. And I just have been playing and playing and playing, pup, pup, pup, play, play, play, meeting so many people everywhere, just doing things and, you know, maybe petting sessions or like, you know, chasing after balls, and bringing those back, fetch sessions, I’ve been enjoying that too.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, there’s a lot of things in there that we’re going to ask you about.

[laughter]

KYLE GETZ

So, let’s start back- what you said that stands out to me that I feel right now is when you first saw pups, you were like, wait, this is kind of weird, or what is this?

PUP KERO

Right. Right.

KYLE GETZ

But before that, were you into anything that you would describe as kinky or BDSM? Or was this the start-

PUP KERO

Nothing, nothing.

KYLE GETZ

Nothing.

PUP KERO

Nothing, nothing. I was just a really boring person.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

You know, I saw these folks, you know, pup stuff, and I’m like, that’s kind of fascinating.

KYLE GETZ

So what did you do sexually before this? Was it, you know, like, did you have any other experiences that were- that kind of led you to this?

PUP KERO

Hm. Well, I mean, before being a pup I- you know, vanilla with a little bit of chocolate, I mean, a little bit group sex. I mean, you know, mostly one on ones. But you know, whatever came my way, just really enjoyed life. And then once I learned more about pup stuff, and my world just- just huge, huge change, I mean, lots of different play, lots of different things. My horizons really got expanded. I just really fell into it.

KYLE GETZ

Other than you know, first seeing pups, what got you to decide to first start exploring it yourself?

PUP KERO

Well, I mean, I wanted to find me, the real me. I wanted to find out what my inner identity was. Because I am a dog lover, I’ve always been a dog lover, I’ve always had pets and like a million dogs growing up, just a real dog person.

KYLE GETZ

Is that important for pups to- to actual- like actual dogs? Does that connect?

MIKE JOHNSON

Are there pups that don’t like real dogs? That’s interesting.

PUP KERO

Sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s funny to me. That’s really funny to me. I don’t know why I just never considered it until right now.

PUP KERO

Well, I mean, it’s true, though. You know, it’s true. I mean, for some people who have allergies, you know, maybe they love the idea of a dog and love being a dog but can’t be around them. I mean, I hate cats. But I see people dressed up like-

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s ’cause cats are evil.

KYLE GETZ

Cats are objectively horrible, so…

PUP KERO

Technically, I’m allergic to cats also.

KYLE GETZ

Oh.

PUP KERO

So yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Got it. Can you tell us about your first pup experience? Like, what was your- What was it like dipping your toe into the water of pup play?

PUP KERO

Oh, yes. I remember my very first- I was so awkward. It was so awkward. Everyone was like, come on, come on play. We got a ball. And I’m like, I’m drinking, drinking and drinking and drinking and drinking. And then I went to go play with those folks. And we play ball, we scratched each other, you know, like we did like kind of like, roll around, you know, like horseplay, you know, doggy style, just kind of like, you know, on top of each other. I mean, it was just fun.

KYLE GETZ

What- I- ok, I have never done or experienced anything pup-related other than being at C.C.’s at the fetish night. So, you’re describing a lot of different kinds of activities.

PUP KERO

Okay, okay, okay, the second Saturday at Cuff, it’s called the mosh, and that’s where pubs get together all the time, like they just kind of get together and hang out, socialize, it’s like two to four something, second Saturday, every month. And so we get together do that just lots of you know, we play ball, we chat, we drink. Or, you know, there’s a little quiet corner there’s a quiet room, we can just sit and like cuddle and snuggle and scratch each other and, you know, do that kind of thing. And then there’s like a play area, you’d have like ropes and wrestle around with each other, you know, pretend biting, pretend biting. Or, you know, you just like grab someone just kind of wrestle around and just, you know, roll around like dogs do.

KYLE GETZ

So there’s- there seems like, aside from the sexual component, there’s an element of this, that you’re getting to pretend to be something you’re not like, it feels like a-

PUP KERO

Yeah, like a dog, like a dog. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

And it feels like- is that part sexual to you? Or is that giving you something else?

PUP KERO

I mean, it’s both. Sometimes, you know, not sexual at all. Sometimes it is kind of a sexual flavor. It just really depends on the people I’m with and the comfort level.

KYLE GETZ

So you might, with a group of people, do these kind of pup role playing things, but not actually, like, have penetrative sex with the-

PUP KERO

Correct, yeah. Correct. Correct. No, I mean, you cannot fuck in the Cuff, in the bar.

KYLE GETZ

Technically.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Right, technically, you cannot.

MIKE JOHNSON

Dan raised his hand.

KYLE GETZ

Do you- Is it just like hooking up with someone where you like, after pup play kind of like find someone to take you home? Or the rules- do they- are the hookup and rules different in the pup world?

PUP KERO

You can I mean, anything can happen after the mosh is over like, you know, you see somebody like maybe go home with them. Or, you know, go to the bathhouse and just get it on, or maybe, you know, go around back to the alley make sure no one’s back there

[laughter]

PUP KERO

you know, boom, real quick. I mean, it can happen. It could happen.

KYLE GETZ

And there are different pup roles. Can you tell me a little bit about the roles and what your role is?

PUP KERO

Well, my pup hood is blue, which means blow jobs. But the rest of the colors, honestly, I’m not sure. I think yellow, I think is pee.

INTERPRETER

Yes. Okay. Thank you, Dan is saying yes.

PUP KERO

Red. I want to say it’s blood.

MIKE JOHNSON

For hankies, it’s fisting, I think.

PUP KERO

Oh, okay. Maybe-

MIKE JOHNSON

I don’t know if the colors are the same between pup hoods and hankies

PUP KERO

I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I just, in my head, I was trying to think of like, what red would mean, like maybe it’s blood, I dunno.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, so there’s hoods that mean different things that you’re into, and aren’t there also like pups and handlers? Can you tell us a little bit about that dynamic?

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah yeah yeah. Handlers, handlers. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I only know a little bit about this part, but I am a pup, like, you could be a handler and you can tell me like what to do. “Sit,” and I would sit. Or you can say, “woof,” and I would woof. “Lay down,” and I would lay down. Or you could tell me to follow you. And then you know, I would just like follow you around, like on a leash. I don’t have a handler, I mean, I prefer to be an independent pup.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay. So my perception is that there’s- oh wait, what are the- you just motioned to your leashes. What are the leash- what’s the leash mean?

PUP KERO

That I’m just a pup. Self-identified independent. Some handlers make a leash and give that to you, then it would mean like I would be yours if you gave me that leash, and that collar that I would like, you know, have to bow down to you. I would be your pet.

KYLE GETZ

And so that’s what I was thinking is there was always like a pup and a handler that go together.

MIKE JOHNSON

But that’s not necessarily the case.

PUP KERO

Oh, no, it can be pup alone. I mean, I’m an independent. Solo.

KYLE GETZ

Independent pup.

PUP KERO

And I prefer it that way. Well, okay, I mean, technically- there’s always like, there’s a person where I’m like, you know, maybe you can be my handler, maybe we’ll talk about it. There’s one person I’m thinking of, and we just keep putting it off and putting it off and putting off. We haven’t set anything up yet.

KYLE GETZ

And so does that mean, the only time you hook up with people is like with pup play? Or do you also do- back to your, what you called, vanilla- your vanilla sex- if someone doesn’t do any pup play.

PUP KERO

Whatever. It’s a big mix.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, okay.

PUP KERO

It’s a big mix. Yeah. If I had a handler, and I wanted to fuck someone, I would have to ask the handler’s permission first. So it kind of depends on who it is and what the dynamic is, and that’s why I’m like, eh, I’d rather be independent because I mean, 24/7 horny, that’s me, right? So…

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Right? I mean, Dan knows, Dan knows.

MIKE JOHNSON

It really stood out to me as well, when you said that you saw this for the first time and just kind of knew that you were interested in it. We did an episode-

PUP KERO

Yeah, yeah. True, true.

MIKE JOHNSON

We did an episode on BDSM, but we’ve talked about other things on the show before and I keep asking, I don’t have- none of them speak to me. Should I just keep looking? And it sounds like, based on your experience anyway, yeah, keep looking. Someday you might find the thing.

PUP KERO

It could be, it could be. I mean, I guess what is your favorite thing to do? Like, what is something that you just like love? I mean, for me, it’s like, you know, the pup scene and, I mean, possibly handler, I don’t know. But maybe group play or something. Or maybe something else.

KYLE GETZ

I think you already know what you’re into, but you’re just like, I don’t know what, embarrassed to admit it, like you like voyeurism. You like, you already said you like those things.

PUP KERO

Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s true.

KYLE GETZ

But it feels like you don’t want to, I don’t know, you don’t want to admit that you like that? Or you don’t want to, I don’t know what it is that-

MIKE JOHNSON

I do think there’s a certain amount of like, whatever I’m into is- I have normalized it. So I’m, I’m always looking for like, what’s the, what’s the thing that I’m going to surprise myself with.

KYLE GETZ

Mmm.

MIKE JOHNSON

And maybe that’s not out there? I don’t know.

KYLE GETZ

Mm.

PUP KERO

Hmm. So you enjoy watching? I mean, you just think that’s hot? I mean, I think that’s hot. Does it make you more excited? I mean, your dick, it’s harder, you’re like, “woo, all right,” just rub that fucking thing until you explode all over the place when you watch people, is that you?

[laughter]

MIKE JOHNSON

Um, I mean sort of? Yes? I actually- I’m also-

PUP KERO

Okay, okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m also chicken shit. I don’t really pursue it that much. I’m afraid to ask people to let me watch them and I have a lot of hang-ups because I grew up in eastern Washington.

PUP KERO

I guess I’m curious. Are you like a shy person? Are you very bashful?

MIKE JOHNSON

Sexually, for sure. I wouldn’t say that- socially, no, not at all. I’m pretty outgoing.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, I do think you have a hard time asking for what you want, or like that’s- for some reason for me, when I’m on the apps, I feel great about just being like, “Okay, so here’s what’s going to happen. You’re going to throw me on the bed. I want it like…” But for some reason, it feels like you can’t tell people directly what you want.

PUP KERO

Oh, you’re like me. You’re like me. I’m just like, yeah, just like app, app, app, here’s all the stuff. Here’s everything that I want.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, it feels like an easy- I think it’s uncomfortable to do it in person, so over the apps, it’s way easier to be like, here’s exactly what I like and figure out if they like that, too.

PUP KERO

Yeah, not really.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, really? What’s your-

PUP KERO

I mean, I’m not shy at all in any sense. I’m just, I’m naked all the time.

KYLE GETZ

I guess I need that like layer of apps to like, make myself feel comfortable doing it.

PUP KERO

Have some more wine, take some more wine.

KYLE GETZ

Or the wine, that helps, too. So I think you just need to, I don’t know, accept what you like and ask people for it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah. And keep not taking my Lexapro because apparently it makes my libido better.

KYLE GETZ

Great. Problem solved. Yeah. So when you- Yeah, going back to that moment where you first figured out that it was something you were into, like, what did that- was that an exciting moment, like you felt like you connected with it already? Did you need to get into it a little bit before you really knew it was your community?

PUP KERO

I mean, I was interested at first, but I did do some research, a little bit of research beforehand. I kind of looked some things up, handlers, pups, being independent, extra handlers, sometimes there’s two handlers one pup, and like, there’s all these different configurations. And I was reading about this stuff and I was asking people, you know, I was like, “Can I just be me without a handler?” Like, “yes, of course you can. Of course you can.” And I’m like, “Okay, okay, so sounds good to me.” And I kind of went down that path. And I just I just really just got into it, just really sucked into it

KYLE GETZ

“Two handlers, one pup” sounds like a great YouTube video.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Oh, there are, there are Yes, there are. You have no idea. You have no idea.

KYLE GETZ

I have never seen any kind of like pup porn, so this might have to be part of my research. Dan’s mouth is- do you have suggestions?

FUCKING DAN

Should we just-

[crosstalk]

KYLE GETZ

This is not part of the podcast that you need to hook up with anyone, but

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, are there sites specifically that cater to the pup community for porn?

PUP KERO

There’s just so many out there. Yeah, they’re just all over.

KYLE GETZ

PupHub.com.

PUP KERO

Sea-pah. S.E.A. Dash P.A.H. That’s for me as a member, it’s a pup membership thing.

KYLE GETZ

Huh. Interesting.

MIKE JOHNSON

Oh.

FUCKING DAN

Seattle pups and handlers is what it’s- S.E.A. P.A.H.

PUP KERO

Exactly

[crosstalk]

FUCKING DAN

Yep. Sea-pah.

KYLE GETZ

Got it.

PUP KERO

Yeah, and in Seattle, of course, Seattle, dash P.A.H., pups and handlers.

KYLE GETZ

So with that, like the community to meet other people, or is that like a porn site?

PUP KERO

Meeting people

KYLE GETZ

Meeting people

PUP KERO

Meeting people.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

PUP KERO

Porn is a separate site.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

PUP KERO

Unless you really, you know, you guys have your own personal agreements. Maybe you could work out some porn afterwards. But it’s separate.

KYLE GETZ

Got it.

PUP KERO

But maybe you guys probably know- what is the name of it? Hump? You guys know Hump?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, the film festival?

PUP KERO

Yes, yes, yes. The film festival, yes. I was in, as a pub, I was in Hump. One of my friends. Danny asked me, he’s like, “please, please, please, please,” and I’m like, “you fucking bet I’ll be in your video.” And it was called, “You get a tail.” “You get a tail” was the video and I was in the show. I was in there. We filmed, there was fucking, and- no blow jobs, just fucking. And I was like, ah, so hot.

KYLE GETZ

Did you then watch it at the film festival later?

PUP KERO

Yes.

KYLE GETZ

And what was that like?

PUP KERO

I was so proud.

KYLE GETZ

Aw.

MIKE JOHNSON

Aw.

PUP KERO

I was like, “yeah!” I was like screaming like, “yeah, it was me!” and everyone was looking at me, and I was like, “it’s me, it’s me. That’s me up there.” But afterwards, after the filming, a few people came up after the show and they were like, “Was that you? And I’m like, “yeah, that was me up there.” And I was, you know, just signing, I’m like, “Yes.” And they’re like, “Oh, wow.” And they were trying to communicate with me and trying to say something, and I’m like, “just talk. I can try to read your lips or whatever.” And they were like, “Oh, can I have your autograph?” I’m like, “you bet.” And boom, there we go.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Sign their program. And it was like, I think two autographs I gave that night.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, so I didn’t know we were talking to a pub celebrity. We would have rolled out the fancy alcohol if we knew that.

PUP KERO

There is no red carpet over there.

[laughter]

KYLE GETZ

No, sorry.

PUP KERO

I mean, this is just red wine.

KYLE GETZ

That’s not the classiest- we’re not the classiest on this podcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

So you mentioned that you you have your hood that you picked out. How long did you shop for that? Where did you shop for that? How did you make your decision?

PUP KERO

I ordered it from Mr. S.

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay.

PUP KERO

Mr. S. Online. Ordered that-

MIKE JOHNSON

that’s a leather company, right? Like harnesses.

PUP KERO

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I think I paid, oh, gosh, maybe 200 plus two day shipping. Little extra, little extra.

MIKE JOHNSON

Need it now!

PUP KERO

Oh, absolutely. I needed it right now. Yeah. And if there was no extra, I mean, it would have been like a week’s way to like, uh huh, no, I click this thing. I need it now. Two days.

KYLE GETZ

What other like pump gear do you have?

PUP KERO

I mean, just the hood so far. I have like a pup shirt, but I really want to buy- I’m not even sure what you can call it- it’s like a little strap that goes on your chest. It’s like a little like a harness, sort of.

KYLE GETZ

A harness?

PUP KERO

Yeah, like that, like a harness. I really want one of those. But I mean, they’re like 250 bucks for a good one. And I’m gonna have to wait. I’m gonna have to wait.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, well, I was gonna ask what other common pup gear that that other people have.

PUP KERO

A collar with like, a little clasp or a leash, not the kind of like I’m wearing here. But like with a leash attachment, elbow pads, gloves, knee pads, and a tail! A tail. It’s like a belt with a tail attached to it. Or there’s one you can put up your ass.

KYLE GETZ

I’ve seen those

PUP KERO

You’ve seen those wag.

KYLE GETZ

Yep. Dan looks very excited about the-

PUP KERO

Oh, yes.

KYLE GETZ

Have you- have you used them?

FUCKING DAN

Daddy has some.

KYLE GETZ

That you’ve used?

FUCKING DAN

Mhm.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, good for you. Help us understand for- I guess I can kind of see the fun of it because I’m more into like sub kind of things. But what is the fun, what is the sexual enjoyment that you get out of doing this? Why does it need to be pup? Why isn’t it other BDSM things that you do? Help people that might not understand it understand why you’re into it.

PUP KERO

BDSM I don’t really know a lot about.

KYLE GETZ

So do you consider yourself part of like the BDSM culture or not? No.

PUP KERO

No, I think that’s separate.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, interesting. I always thought of it as part of it because it has some of the like, the same dynamics.

PUP KERO

I mean, I think there are- some pups do crossover. But I think- I mean, maybe I’m wrong, but I think some do, and some don’t. And I’m one that doesn’t, I don’t-

KYLE GETZ

So pup play is the only kind of…

PUP KERO

That’s it. That’s it. That’s it. Everybody’s got their own circles. And I don’t think that they all necessarily intersect. I have met a few trans pups. And they’re so cool. So cool. So that’s all good.

KYLE GETZ

So then help explain what draws you to that? What do you get out of it?

PUP KERO

Um, I like to meet a lot of new people. And as a pup, you meet people all the time, like exchange, Facebook, phone number, I mean, you fuck a lot about of people and sometimes s ome of them come up to you. And it’s like, and they try to talk to me, and I’m like, “Hello, yes, I’m right here. Do you want to say something?” And they’re just like, “okay, hang on.” And then they bust out their phone and like, text me something and I read it. And they’re like, “I want to learn ASL.” And I’m like, okay, roll my eyes first. Hi back. And like, it’s like, man, you gotta sign up for like VisuallySpeaking.info because I teach classes there. I teach classes, I’m like, “hey, sign up, you want to learn? Sign up.” And they’re like, “okay, is it hard?” And I’m like, “I don’t know, go and sign up and go find out for yourself.”

KYLE GETZ

That’s so interesting that the first thing you mentioned that you like is meeting people because I would have expected it to be more about like- you- the first thing you didn’t say was, it’s fun to have sex. Or, like you talked about the the people in it. That’s really interesting to me.

PUP KERO

Yeah. I mean, sex too, but meeting people. I mean, I work at Trader Joe’s and I mean, I meet tons of people every day and I love meeting people. I love it. Love it. I’m not shy to meet anybody. I’ll go to anybody and be like, “hey, my name is Kero,” and people would like just like recoil in horror, “Are you deaf?” “Uh, duh. Yes I am deaf.”

[laughter]

KYLE GETZ

So is there a subculture within the pup community that is deaf pups?

MIKE JOHNSON

I wanted to ask about intersectionality.

PUP KERO

So far I am the only deaf one that I know. So far, so far. And proud of it, proud of it. Very proud.

KYLE GETZ

Do you want this to be a call out to any other deaf Seattle pups?

PUP KERO

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Yes, okay. If anyone out there is a deaf pup that is in the Seattle area

MIKE JOHNSON

and listens to our podcast? We don’t make it very accessible.

KYLE GETZ

Ah, shit.

PUP KERO

Well, you know, you could do a YouTube, you could do a YouTube thing

KYLE GETZ

That’s true, we could do- and we need to get transcripts once we can…

PUP KERO

Yes. transcripts.

KYLE GETZ

Afford it. Maybe, this one, we definitely should do it for this one. Sorry. This is not- now I’m just thinking like for this one specifically.

PUP KERO

Oh, it’s totally fine.

FUCKING DAN

I found a possibly cheaper option, so we can talk more about it.

KYLE GETZ

You mentioned something that I think was really interesting that when you started experimenting with pup, you said you like found- you wanted to find yourself? What do you feel like you’ve learned about yourself by being in the pup community?

PUP KERO

Well, before being a pup, I just- I just didn’t know who I was. I didn’t know what I really wanted to do with my life or anything. And I just, you know, went to college, did some hair styling, no clients were coming in and nothing was working out. I mean, I think because I was deaf. That’s probably part of it. Before we got married, you know, some of the pup stuff and I was just curious. And I just had this feeling, just like this instant, immediate feeling of like, you know, yeah, that looks fun. I think that I maybe want to get into that. Is that me over there? So I kind of just followed that feeling and decided I’m gonna give this thing a try and it gave me so much stuff to do. I really got into it. And like, I would start going to all these events, all these pup-specific events as well, and seeing all these handler and pup events, and went to a canine pup event. And I just I love like all these events and started getting into it and doing doing the stuff and meeting people. I really feel like I found myself. I really felt like that was really me.

KYLE GETZ

And we didn’t ask about this yet. You’re currently married.

PUP KERO

Yes, yes.

KYLE GETZ

And so tell me about that dynamic with your marriage and you know, what do you do? What does your husband? I didn’t ask that. Is that right?

PUP KERO

Yes, yes, husband yes.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. And what, like, does he go with you?

PUP KERO

I mean, my husband is a professional interpreter.

KYLE GETZ

PUP KERO

Yes, yes.

KYLE GETZ

That’s cute.

PUP KERO

Yes. And when we met, he knew barely any sign language before he met me. And then, you know, a little bit, he’s kind of just roughly signing, it was really cute, really cute. And then we started dating. And I admit, I was talking a lot. I was talking and signing and he was like, struggling to keep up when we were kind of going through it. And then I think after maybe four months or so I got stuck. A friend asked me to move out. So I was like, Okay, well, that means I would have to find another place to live or I would have to fly back home to Minnesota. And my husband, his name is Chris, he’s like, “No, no, no, no, you can’t leave. You can’t leave, like live with me live with me if you don’t have a place.” And I was like, “ummmm”

KYLE GETZ

After how long of dating?

PUP KERO

Three months.

KYLE GETZ

Wow.

MIKE JOHNSON

You’re basically lesbians then.

PUP KERO

Fuck you, fuck you.

[laughter]

KYLE GETZ

Says Mike who moved in with his now ex-husband after-

MIKE JOHNSON

two months.

KYLE GETZ

Mike’s right there with you.

PUP KERO

That’s even worse. You’re a worse lesbian.

MIKE JOHNSON

Exactly.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

So moved in with him. And with his cousin. It was a little bit awkward with three people in a small apartment and we were like hmmmm, and I’m like me, and Chris decided to move out on our own. And we got a place, got a new apartment. And so I’m like, “Hey, you know, you know, I can kind of talk right? Okay, but I’m going to turn my tongue and my throat off. And I’m gonna bust out my hands. And you’re gonna have to learn some sign language.” And he like, you know, trial by fire. And he was like, “Oh, my God stop stop stop.” And he had to go to school. He had to go to school and study to become an interpreter. And he got through it and graduated. And now he’s a professional interpreter. He has been one for I think five years.

KYLE GETZ

Wow. So did you get into pup while the two of you were together?

PUP KERO

Yes, yes. We were dating. And I was in the process of learning about pups. Yes. That is correct.

KYLE GETZ

And how- what is- does he- Is he involved in the pup community at all? Does he- is that

PUP KERO

no, no, no.

KYLE GETZ

And he’s-

PUP KERO

He is just, he is just Chris. He is just Chris.

KYLE GETZ

So does that mean you’re in a- do you call it an open relationship?

PUP KERO

Yes, yes. I mean, we agreed, mutually agreed before we started dating. And I’m like, “Hey, you know, look, I need, I mean, I want to try and open relationship,” and he’s like, “okay,” and we just rolled with it. Because I mean, one on one is like, you know, kinda boring after a while, and I’m like, 24/7 I am horny. And I mean, I didn’t know about him. I was look, you know, “Open? You okay with open?” He’s like, “Yes, of course.” But of course we communicate communication, talk about things all the time. “Hey, I’m going to go fuck this guy over here.” “Okay, cool. Have fun. And you know, and play safe or, you know, come home safe, at least.” So, yes, but we communicate, communicate, communicate. So important.

KYLE GETZ

So then I’m just- that’s so interesting to me that he’s not at all in the pup community, but that’s such a big part of your life. Is there anything that you need to do special to like, make that work other than communication? Or is it just whatever you do in your sex life, he’s just like, “that’s cool.”

PUP KERO

I mean, we just talk first before anything ever happen, before sex with anyone happens. And I be like, “Hey, you cool if I fuck someone?” He’s like, “Yeah cool, have fun, just go and do it.” And sometimes, like, he will ask me, and he’ll say, “yeah, you know, there’s this guy who kind of wants to, you know, kind of get my number and just suck them off real quick.” And I’ll be like, “that guy?” He’ll be like, “yeah,” I’ll be like, “yeah, go go, do it.” I don’t care, you know, so…

KYLE GETZ

So the pup doesn’t like factor into that, at all. That doesn’t seem like it’s an element.

PUP KERO

No, no.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. It’s more about the open relationship.

PUP KERO

He totally doesn’t care if I’m a pup. I mean, he notices that I’m happier. And so

KYLE GETZ

Aw.

PUP KERO

me being happy makes him happy. As far as the, like, the sex stuff. I mean, we, like I said, communication. Sometimes it’s threesomes. Sometimes it’s foursomes, and I’ve done a six-way one time.

KYLE GETZ

So then when you- Does he ever do the pup play with you? Or when you’re having sex with him, is there- is it no pup stuff?

MIKE JOHNSON

Like, is he anti when it comes to his sex?

PUP KERO

No, no pup stuff. I mean, he’s just, it’s just normal. You know, married sex, I guess.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

I mean, married sex? Sure. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

This is blowing my mind. I just didn’t imagine there being a relationship with one person in the pup community and one person not so like, that’s just so interesting to me.

PUP KERO

Some pups ask him, you know, “Hey, can I, you know, can you be my handler? Or can we get some kind of a thing going on?” And he’ll be like, “you know, I dunno.” We talk, I mean, you know, maybe later we’ll discuss it or something. But no. And I’m like, if he wants to go for it, if he wants to be someone’s handler or something, I mean, I don’t care. I know that there’s one handler who I kind of want to nudge. But I keep- I mentioned this earlier, you know, I haven’t done anything yet it but it can happen. I mean, I don’t know maybe

KYLE GETZ

how, okay, how do you imagine that working if you have a husband and separately have a handler, that seems like a really complicated dynamic.

PUP KERO

We would figure it out, we would figure it out.

KYLE GETZ

I just- okay, this is- I’m just processing all of this. Dan. Dan is treating me like I’m ridiculous.

FUCKING DAN

You’re talking about three whole people you’re talking about?

KYLE GETZ

Yes.

FUCKING DAN

That’s not complicated.

KYLE GETZ

Two people are complicated, much less…

FUCKING DAN

No. 7, 8, 9 people is complicated. Three is easy.

PUP KERO

That’s true. That is very true. Dan. I have experienced, you know, like group sex like threesomes, foursomes and then the six way and an eight way one time and so like, you know, different dynamics, but so fucking hot though, all of it.

KYLE GETZ

I’m still like, really trying to understand the pup play that you’re doing before, is that all foreplay as part of it? Is that sometimes just fun to do separate than the sexual experience?

PUP KERO

I mean, it’s both. I mean, it can be foreplay, you can suck somebody off while you’re doing it, roll around and touch someone or you end up fucking while you’re doing it sometimes. It just depends on our preferences, the mood, or you know, “you guys up for it?” or “no, we’re just going to do a little foreplay. And then that’s it.” I mean, who knows?

KYLE GETZ

Sometimes you might do like, some, I don’t know what to call it pup stuff and then it doesn’t lead anywhere. And then you’re like, Okay, bye.

PUP KERO

Yeah, that happens. That happens.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

PUP KERO

And then sometimes you just fucking go bye. That’s it.

KYLE GETZ

How long did it take you to feel- It seems like there’s so many customs and norms that you have to learn about. How long was it after you started that you felt comfortable, like you kind of knew what you were doing?

PUP KERO

About three months or so.

KYLE GETZ

So then how do you learn? You said you did like research. Is that the main way you learn, or do you learn by interacting with handlers?

PUP KERO

I think just meeting new people in person, people who are pups, I mean, I think is a great way. And if there’s a handler to I mean, go to them and talk to them, too. I mean, for me anyway, I mean, I don’t think there’s any you know, I don’t think there’s a lot of educational websites, in terms of that. But I think in person, touching a person, seeing a person and seeing what it’s all about. That’s what I like, anyway.

KYLE GETZ

Gotcha. And what advice would you give to someone who’s interested in it, but doesn’t know kind of what to do next or how to get involved? Dan, are you volunteering yourself?

FUCKING DAN

Sorry. As Kero knows, like, yeah, like I have dipped my toe in pupness.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, so if you’re Dan-

FUCKING DAN

I am a pup in my bedroom with Daddy. But very, like, I’ve never been to a mosh, I’ve never…

PUP KERO

is your name, is your name Scout?

KYLE GETZ

Have y’all, wait. Have y’all interacted in like the pup world before?

FUCKING DAN

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

[gasp]

FUCKING DAN

Yeah, I was actually really surprised to hear that Kero was one of the few deaf pups because when I’ve hung out with him, everyone that surrounds him is signing. I thought I was the-

PUP KERO

They learn, they learn, they learn.

FUCKING DAN

Mox and Micro. And like, so many people are signing, so many of the pups sign, it seems like but maybe- Yeah, maybe.

PUP KERO

No. Just me. Just me. I’m the one.

KYLE GETZ

Interesting. Okay, I knew- we had you reach out but I didn’t know that like y’all were like in circles together.

FUCKING DAN

Ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Kero’s one of the first pups that’s like, he came and like, sat with me and with Daddy and like, he’s like, “What’s your pup name?” And he’s one of the first people that made me feel included in a pup community.

PUP KERO

Yes, yes. I am proud of it. I’m proud of it.

KYLE GETZ

Do you find yourself like falling into that role often of like welcoming people into the community?

FUCKING DAN

Ambassador.

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Anybody who wants to become a pup or wants to try to, I’m like come on in. Come on, and get over here. Come here. No, no, no? Here, have some booze. Now keep coming over here and just relax. Just relax, be yourself. Don’t get too stressed. Don’t get all in your head about it. Just let go and just enjoy. And that’s how I got Dan and I can see him drinking, drinking, drinking and then he kind of loosened up a little bit.

KYLE GETZ

Okay, well, our listeners have an interesting fascination with learning more about Dan so the more you can spill about Dan, the better.

PUP KERO

We should share all the information Dan. Um, gosh, the first time we met, where was it? It was a Diesel, Diesel, right? Yeah, Diesel. He was with his daddy and his daddy knew some sign and so we were kind of just chatting a little bit and he was like, watching the conversation back forth. He’s like, I need to learn ASL, dammit. So slowly picks it up but think you’re coming along.

KYLE GETZ

Have y’all fucked?

PUP KERO

Not yet. Not yet.

KYLE GETZ

Oh okay.

FUCKING DAN

Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

PUP KERO

But he wants to, he wants to.

FUCKING DAN

How do you sign “yet”?

PUP KERO

Not yet. This is how you’d sign it, not yet.

FUCKING DAN

Not yet.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

FUCKING DAN

That’s the appropriate sign for the situation, yes.

KYLE GETZ

Dan you’ll have to tell me later how much of this I can include and how much of this I have to cut out because

FUCKING DAN

Include it all

KYLE GETZ

All of it. Okay. Dan, tell me, you said that he was the first person to make you feel included in like the pup community. What’s it like for you then like when you first, I don’t know met a pup, got started like-

FUCKING DAN

he’s definitely not the first pup I’ve met, but like the sort of public out in bars out and like out in a public space pup community like it’s it’s intimidating on some level like for me because I’m I’m surprisingly maybe to listeners I’m very shy, I don’t easily talk to people out in public.

PUP KERO

Oh, I knew, I knew that.

FUCKING DAN

Yeah.

PUP KERO

I knew that.

FUCKING DAN

Yeah, Kero knows that, Yeah, I’m I’m not easy. Yeah, I’m shy and then once you start talking to me I become an open book that’s how I describe myself and I know pups more privately but Kero was the first to like come over and like start talking to me and like “hey, meet this pup and this pup and this pup and come over here, we’re going to hang out” and then like it I like and Kero put his mask on or his hood on- his pup hood on me and then like Mox had me put his put on me

PUP KERO

Yes, yes, yes.

FUCKING DAN

To try to figure out what size would fit me best and like that was a big deal for me, it was an even bigger deal for Daddy cuz that like, he’s smiled ear to ear. He wants-

KYLE GETZ

Oh he was into that.

FUCKING DAN

He wants me to have a pup hood real bad.

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I took a picture of him with it. Yeah yeah.

FUCKING DAN

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Is the pup community small enough that like everyone knows each other?

PUP KERO

My pup community here. I mean, I know everybody but I mean out there in the world. I mean, no, I mean, I know some people out there for sure.

KYLE GETZ

So in Seattle, though, you know most

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah. In Seattle. Sure.

KYLE GETZ

Interesting.

PUP KERO

And there’s cats, there’s pups. Some people dress up like horses. Squirrels maybe, I think I see a squirrel. I mean, it just depends your preference.

KYLE GETZ

What?

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Is it- I’ve only heard about the pups, when you do like horse play, is it the same idea?

FUCKING DAN

Pony.

KYLE GETZ

Is it all….

PUP KERO

Oh, yes. Yeah, right. Pony, yes. pony.

KYLE GETZ

Pony. Okay.

FUCKING DAN

But is it just the same as the pup? No, I mean, every every animal has their different thing.

KYLE GETZ

So okay, so the, the you You’re, you’re doing the thing of the animal, but it’s the same idea of one person is acting like the animal, whatever they would do.

PUP KERO

Yeah, basically, basically. You copy the animal. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay.

PUP KERO

Recently, I saw a horse, or I guess a pony, came up, and I’m like, whoa, like they had like these giant like shoes they were clumping around in and they had this giant like, thing they were wearing. Like, it’s kind of harness and these like hooves on their hands. And this big, like thing on their head that had like the elongated face of a horse and some ears. And I’m like, whoa. So I decided to grab my best friend who knows a lot about signing also. And I’m like, “Hey, would you mind interpreting for me real quick?” And so we went up to this, this pony. And I’m like, “Hey, pony.”

[laughter]

PUP KERO

“You know, I’m deaf. And, can I just ask you a question?” And, of course, I mean, I couldn’t read lips, because I mean, I, you know, wearing the horse mask. And so I’m looking at my friend. And he’s like, “Yeah, of course.” So I’m just like, “your outfit, your accoutrement, like all these things are wearing, how do you feel with all this stuff on?” He’s like, “I’m sweaty as fuck in here.”

[laughter]

PUP KERO

And I’m like yes. Okay, thumbs up. That’s all I wanted to know. Okay.

KYLE GETZ

That’s so interesting that you can- you are into pup play, which some people don’t understand. But other people can be doing something like wearing a pony outfit and you don’t understand that, like, so you can kind of understand how people on the outside might feel?

PUP KERO

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. I know you said you had dogs growing up. Would you ever explore with a different animal that’s not a pup?

PUP KERO

Nope, nope.

KYLE GETZ

Wow, like

MIKE JOHNSON

Definitive.

PUP KERO

Pups is it forever until I’m dead and buried.

KYLE GETZ

Okay. All right. Yeah, I mean, we all agree cats are the worst. So as long as- be open to anything that’s not a cat. But-

MIKE JOHNSON

so leading up to this episode, I told a lot of people that we were going to have you on and I- more than once somebody said, “Oh, so he’s a furry.” And I said “for sure not. That’s not what this is.” But I had a hard time.

PUP KERO

Oh, oh, oh. There are furries though. That is- but you’re correct. It’s totally different from a pup thing.

MIKE JOHNSON

I’m just-

PUP KERO

Yeah, a Venn diagram, right.

MIKE JOHNSON

Can you can you speak to that? Like where are those boundaries? Or how do you tell the differences?

PUP KERO

Well, I don’t know much about furries. Honestly, I cannot speak on that very much what they do, what their jam is, but furies, they have they wear a lot of fur is like what I observe and they just have for like all over their face. And like the hoods and the costumes. It looks like they’re really hot and they’re sweating and like stumbling around and after a while you gotta take it off and then it smells like, it really smells. The sweat is instense.

FUCKING DAN

One of the differences that I’ve picked up from the people that I spent time who- I spend time with many people who are both furries and pups, most pup hoods, you can see their eyes. Most furry heads, you cannot, and so

PUP KERO

That’s a good point. Yeah

FUCKING DAN

There’s a dissociative nature to a furry costume that doesn’t exist with a pup, like a pup hood. So pup hood, you can stay sort of engaged with the eyes. So if that’s important to you.

PUP KERO

Oh, gosh, you know, no, no,

FUCKING DAN

No?

PUP KERO

I think it can happen where you could still have a really strong connection with a furry I think.

FUCKING DAN

Yeah?

PUP KERO

And gosh, I mean, that’s an interesting point, though. I mean, I’ve had- I’ve met a few where like, we really connected. And it could be like really extra exciting sex sometimes. So

MIKE JOHNSON

I did want to ask a little bit about the experience, and it’s probably a hard question because these are really abstract concepts, but when you’re in your hood, and you’re playing, does it feel different than real life? Like, I don’t even want to say, I don’t even know if it’s appropriate to call it real life. But like when you’re not a pup, when you’re at your job or whatever, does it feel different? Does existence feel different?

PUP KERO

No, no. I mean, it’s like 50/50, kind of. I kind of flip back and forth between them. But it feels like me, like at my job. I’m like, focused, I’m doing my work. I’m just doing things. And then pup stuff is like, you know, like, yeah, I’ll get to that later once work is all done. And then once you’re, you’re finished, and you get home, shower, get dressed, put on the hood, and then like you do your own pup stuff. I mean, it’s, I mean, I feel like it’s real. There’s no conflict, if that’s kind of what you’re asking. It doesn’t- there’s no mixed up feelings.

KYLE GETZ

It seems like you would get to, if you wanted to, kind of be a different character, but like, be a little bit different person than you always are.

MIKE JOHNSON

But it sounds like he’s saying not that for him-

PUP KERO

I mean, for my job, I’m still Kero. So they still call me the same as my pup name. But it’s funny because we have new managers who didn’t realize that my real name comes on my paycheck. And so they’re going through my paycheck and they’re going through the checks and they’re checking. “I don’t see- you have to check in here. I don’t see your check Kero.” And I’m like, “No, no come here, come here.” And so I would like pick my check out the stack and like, “this is me,” and they’re like, “oh, Foster. I didn’t know that was your real name but we only called you Kero.” “yeah, I mean, I am Kero. Ruff ruff ruff.” And I’ll bark at people at work and like, “yeah, okay, okay, Got it. Got it.” That clears it up for people pretty quick.

KYLE GETZ

We didn’t ask about the like, pup name. What is the importance of the pup name?

PUP KERO

Well, I think it’s just a comfort level. Um, you’re just more comfortable with your name, because that’s who you are. That’s who I am. So I mean, Kero is who I feel most comfortable as, I mean for like the last seven years. So I think that’s really the relevance of it. I really enjoy that. But you know, when it comes to legal stuff, if police show up, or lawyers or anything like that, I have to like switch back to being Foster. And I feel like ugh, Foster, ugh. Yes, my name’s Foster.

KYLE GETZ

I was thinking that people typically like only use their pup name when they were doing their pup things. Is

PUP KERO

No, no, no, no. Wide open all the time. Yeah.

KYLE GETZ

Wow. So it’s like a, I don’t know, it feels like you, once you get into the community, you kind of become- and now I’m starting to understand what you mean by finding yourself because it seems like you were able to-

PUP KERO

Kero is who I am. Yes. All the time.

KYLE GETZ

And that’s something that you found through the pub community.

PUP KERO

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Kero is me.

KYLE GETZ

What do you think would have happened- I think it could have been easy for you to not have seen this pup community and not have gotten involved in it. Do you think you would have found it eventually? Or do you think there would have been something out there that you were still looking for?

PUP KERO

You know, I probably would have never found myself, I don’t think. I mean, if I had never met those pups that day, or if I’d never bumped into them and it would just be- I would just be plain old Foster, I don’t know

KYLE GETZ

huh.

PUP KERO

Yeah. Yeah,

KYLE GETZ

this is something that I didn’t expect about this of like, how, how much it permeates kind of the the rest of your life outside of being in your hood or doing pup stuff. How do you feel like it’s affected the other aspects of your life being at your job, being with your friends?

PUP KERO

Well, well, maybe I’m not gonna use her name, but I have a friend. I have a friend of mine. And we work together at Trader Joe’s. And she always says the sign for woof. And she’s like woof, woof, woof, woof, woof, woof, and I asked her like, “hey, so what are you doing, like a dog thing? What’s going on?” And she’s like, “well, I don’t know. Should I be a dog?” And I’m like, “Well, I mean, come along, and come in my community. You’re always welcome. Maybe try it someday.” And so she does his woof thing all the time. Woof woof woof woof. And so I think maybe there’s a seed there. Maybe like it means I’m spreading the word. I mean, she’s still new, still new. I think she wants to maybe get into it. So me being an ambassador, me being the nudger. But you know, she’s got a crazy work schedule and my work schedule. I don’t know if we could ever play together the same time. So

MIKE JOHNSON

it’s so my perception is it’s almost exclusively gay men. Is that not true?

PUP KERO

Oh, no, it’s both. It’s both.

KYLE GETZ

Would you play with people that are not gay men?

PUP KERO

We would play, rope play or rolling around, not sex, no, but like, pup play, sure.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, so you- so the pup play doesn’t necessarily have to be with other gay men. But then like when it comes to the like, the sex, that would only be with other gay men?

PUP KERO

Correct. Yes. Correct.

KYLE GETZ

I’m, like, I’m still maybe I’m like still trying to figure out how this all comes together of like, the pup play stuff, if that’s with people that are not gay men, then it’s not all about just the foreplay, if they’re not the ones you’re sexually into.

PUP KERO

I mean, you’re just playing with the ball. You’re just doing whatever you’re just playing.

KYLE GETZ

I guess what I’m realizing is there’s just way more than the actual sex while wearing a pup mask that that’s involved. And that’s what I need to kind of expand my definition of what the pup community is.

PUP KERO

Yes, yes.

KYLE GETZ

I’m learning. Are most people then gay men?

PUP KERO

Most, yes. Most of them are, mostly gay men. I think there are some lesbians. There are some trans people. There are a couple of straights in there.

MIKE JOHNSON

So I wanted to ask a little bit ago, you were talking about, Kero is who you are, it’s permeated your whole life. Can I ask about your family? Are you close with your family? Are they accepting of this identity?

PUP KERO

My family accepts me as gay. Sure. And not at first, not at first. My mom did not accept that. Okay, my parents are divorced, backing it up a little bit. And I was in the closet in high school, super in the closet, graduated, met some friends like I must have been 18 or so. came out to friends at that time, didn’t come out to my mom to like mid 20s or something. And when my mom found out like, oh, my fucking god. I told my mom, I was like, I need to borrow your van because I need to move. And so she was going to use my car because we’re a switch vehicles. My mom was using my car, like I said, we switched. She went to go grocery shopping or something. She’s driving. And then like this really bright light came on. And it was like from inside the car and something fell out of like the little, the sunshade. And so she looked at this, and she found a note or something. And she drove back home as soon as she found what fell out of the sunshade. And it was my note to an old ex and I said, “Hello, Peter. I want to say I love you. And I really enjoyed our life together and the sex was great.” And she read the note because of this light that went off in the car. And I was like, fuck.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, no.

PUP KERO

Yeah, she knew was my handwriting. She knew it. She knew it. So that’s how she found out. So she came back home. Mom saw me come back and she’s like, “Hey, can I talk to you?” I’m like, “yeah, sure.” And she whips out the note. And I saw that note in the back of my mind, I was like fuuuuuck. And I open the note and I’m like, “Yes, mom.” And she just kind of sighed, shook her head “no.” She’s like, “please go back to being straight.” And I was like, “Mom, I can’t. That’s who I am. That’s me.” And she’s like, “fine, but don’t tell the rest of the family.” So for a while, I didn’t say anything, just for a few months. And then I thought, “Forget it. Forget it.” I just I told my brother. I told my dad. I just told everybody, just put it out there. My dad, he’s like, “Yeah, come over to my house for dinner.” And I saw this message and I’m like, “Oh, man. Okay, I’ll be there.” So I drove to my dad’s house got there. Like, “Hey, dad,” he’s like, “Oh, hi Foster, come on in. Come on in. Come on, sit out over here. Come on.” And his friend got up and left immediately. And I was like, oooh man, so I sat down. My dad’s like, “what’s up Foster?” I’m like, “you asked me to come over.” He’s like, “Yeah, I know. I know. I knew you’re gay ever since you were little. You were playing with Barbie dolls.” I’m like, “fuck you knew?” He’s like, “Yeah. Yeah,” I’m like, “Dad I’m gay. He’s like, “that’s okay. I love you.” And I’m like, “ohh,” I started crying. I started crying. I started crying. I was like, “oh my god. Thank you, dad.” It’s like, Mom did not accept me for- I mean, it must have been two years. And then she finally start accepting me. My dad accepted me right away. So I’m thinking about- I always thought that moms would accept and dads wouldn’t, and it was totally the opposite, totally the opposite. I was like, “What the fuck?” You know, it’s crazy.

KYLE GETZ

Do you talk to them at all about the pup part of this?

PUP KERO

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. My parents don’t know that I’m in an open marriage even so shush about that.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, so they know you’re married.

PUP KERO

They don’t know that it’s open. They don’t know that it’s open.

KYLE GETZ

Got it. And you- by the, by the way you’re acting, it sounds like they don’t need to know or you don’t necessarily want to tell them- talk about that part.

PUP KERO

I mean, actually, my mom kind of knows that I’m a pup, but does she know that I play with people? I don’t think she knows that part. And I would prefer to keep it that way. My sister Rocky, she knows. She knows like everything. And we are super tight, super tight, super close. And I mean, my sister is just like, I mean, “I’m like, Oh, I played with this one new pup and we fucked and everything.” She’s like, “Oh, cool. Foster. Yeah. Tell me about, it’s great. Okay, great. Have fun.” And so she’s really cool. And I mean, my husband knows everything, so yeah, it’s- yeah,

KYLE GETZ

That must be nice to have your sister know and be-

PUP KERO

Oh, my God. Yes. Yes. I mean, we are just so close. So close. Yes.

KYLE GETZ

Would you like some day to talk to your parents about it? Is that something that eventually you’d want them to know? Or you just want them not- like not to know about that part of your life?

PUP KERO

Honestly. I love my parents, but they are old fashioned and I don’t know how they would feel even about the open marriage stuff, open relationship stuff. I would prefer to probably keep all that stuff to myself, I think, unless they were like asking me like, if they had a direct question about it. Like if they’re like, “Foster are you in an open relationship?” I would answer them honestly. But if we’re not going to talk about it, then I’m gonna let it lie.

KYLE GETZ

Is there any last words? Anything else that we didn’t ask that we should know about?

PUP KERO

I mean, I think putting pup aside for a second, and definitely putting cats aside,

[laughter]

PUP KERO

I mean, I think just like, the open relationship stuff, I think, honestly, I just want to really reiterate, communicating with your partner, boyfriend, husband, whoever it is. It’s so important.

KYLE GETZ

How long have you been together?

PUP KERO

Almost 11 years. Wow.

KYLE GETZ

And married…

PUP KERO

Almost five years married, but together for 11.

KYLE GETZ

Wow. That’s really impressive. Especially in the gay world.

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes. True biz. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, I’ve tried to date a few deaf people and it did not work out at all.

KYLE GETZ

Why?

PUP KERO

Oh, my God. Oh, my God, I mean, I’m happy to share. Uh, you know, hey, I’m gonna really stick the deaf community right now, I guess. But deaf people tend to gossip like really bad. Really bad levels of gossip. And there’s like zero confidentiality, zero privacy. Like one time, my previous previous previous ex, who was deaf, we dated, you know, we’ve, you know, fucked, had sex, and everything, you know, as you do. And like two days later, I was at a deaf event, just the deaf event. We were just socializing, and someone’s like, “hey, Foster,” and I’m like, “Hi.” They’re like, “Hey, I heard what happened to your partner.” And I’m like, “what, two days ago? What are you talking about?” “Oh, yeah, you totally fucked my best friend and this is this person” (who I’m not gonna name right now) and I’m like, “Oh, my God. How did you know that we fucked two days ago.? Where’d you get the information?” I mean, like, nothing is confidential. Nothing is secret. And so I went to my partner at the time, and I’m like, :Why did you tell the person we fucked?” And he’s like, “yeah, it’s not private. You know, we’re just open.” I’m like, “No, don’t talk about your sex life. That’s between you and me.” He’s like, “oh, whatever. It’s totally fine.” And I’m like, “Oh, you think that’s fucking fine. Really? You think that’s fine?” And so I asked that person, and I’m like, “hey, so person that knows about this, did you tell other people?” And like, “Oh, yeah, I told my other best friend. I told my friend over here, told this other friend, that friend told a friend.” And so like, literally everybody in the fucking world knew about it. And I’m like, done. I’m done with this. I do not want this anymore. You cannot trust a deaf person in a relationship.

KYLE GETZ

Wow. I had no idea.

PUP KERO

If you ever have a relationship with a deaf guy, you will get whiplash. You will be like, people will know like the next day. Every single thing, you will have no privacy. I’m warning you right now. Trust me.

KYLE GETZ

What if I like that?

PUP KERO

I mean, okay. No problem with that if you like it.

MIKE JOHNSON

Should we take a break?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Let’s take a break.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s take a break.

Break Music [MIKE JOHNSON singing]

This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break.

MIKE JOHNSON

So are we back?

KYLE GETZ

We’re back.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re back.

KYLE GETZ

We are going to do our gayest and straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

We’re going to do our gayest and straightest. But first, our website is gayishpodcast.com.

KYLE GETZ

Our Twitter, Facebook, Instagram is @gayest podcast or /gayishpodcast.

MIKE JOHNSON

Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails is 5855-GAYISH. That’s 585-542-9474, standard rates apply.

KYLE GETZ

And our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.

MIKE JOHNSON

So Kero, if people out there want to get in touch with you, or do you have anything that you want people to know?

PUP KERO

Um, I mean, if you can find me on Facebook, contact me on Facebook if you’d like. Okay.

MIKE JOHNSON

And you mentioned moshes, right?

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah. The mosh. Yeah, definitely. It’s the- I’m thinking the second Friday. It’s like a social night event. And then the next day is the actual official mosh. But yeah, yeah. You should come up to these events, come out.

MIKE JOHNSON

You said it’s at the Cuff Complex on Capitol Hill in Seattle.

PUP KERO

Correct. Yes, correct.

KYLE GETZ

Cool. So if you’re in the Seattle area, go check that out. We are going to do our gayest and straightest.

MIKE JOHNSON

Let’s do our gayest and straightest. Do you want me to start?

KYLE GETZ

Yeah, go for it.

KYLE GETZ

Did you win?

MIKE JOHNSON

Okay, great. So the straightest thing about me this week, on my way to work this morning, I was merging on to the 520 and there was another SUV, I think it was an Escalade. It was a big ass car. And like he came up beside me and like matched my speed and was giving me this like, “Are we going to fight for who gets to merge first?” thing I just felt really butch in my Jeep. I was like, “Yeah,” and I punched it and tried to beat him off the line. And you know, it was fun.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, I did actually

KYLE GETZ

Oh good for you.

FUCKING DAN

Did you say beat him off?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, oh God.

[laughter]

MIKE JOHNSON

All right. All right. And the gayest thing about me this week, I didn’t tell you about this, but like three or four nights ago, I had a dream that I had to call you because I was so upset that Cardi B had died. And I woke up in this like cold sweat, I was like “oh my god. Is she okay?” Like I did that thing where like, maybe it’s real?

KYLE GETZ

Yup. Not everyone would be upset by that. Depending on who you are.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, just having dreams about a pop person dying is like, that’s pretty, pretty fucking gay.

KYLE GETZ

That’s adorable. My straightest thing. This is a little bit old, but it’s so straight, but I wanted to use it. When my dad was visiting me, we went down to Tacoma and we did a bunch of stuff while we were there, but one of the things we did was, when we were at the hotel room, he turned on ESPN, and we watched track and field.

MIKE JOHNSON

Awesome.

KYLE GETZ

Why? I don’t know. I mean, he grew up doing track and field, but it’s just, I don’t know, it seemed really weird.

MIKE JOHNSON

Do you have a favorite track and field event?

KYLE GETZ

Um, the pole vault? The more pole the better.

MIKE JOHNSON

Yeah, you would.

[laughter]

KYLE GETZ

The gayest thing- shit. I had one then I forgot.

MIKE JOHNSON

Wah wah. What is this episode 123, 124? Get your shit together, Kyle. You know how this works.

KYLE GETZ

uh-

MIKE JOHNSON

You came over on Sunday, we had dinner and then a bunch of us went up on the roof. I came back downstairs to get another beer and go to the bathroom and you were laying on the couch singing, I think it was Britney.

PUP KERO

Oooooh.

KYLE GETZ

Was I?

MIKE JOHNSON

Yup, you were singing something.

FUCKING DAN

Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, I don’t remember that. Okay, but that does remind me especially this weekend, the Taylor Swift song came out that’s like the gay Pride one that like gays love to hate. And the last two Taylor Swift songs I’ve like had to play for you many times in a row. So yeah, there we go. That’s my gayest thing.

FUCKING DAN

I’m supposed to say quiet. But

KYLE GETZ

But

FUCKING DAN

Taylor Swift a cis, straight white woman is writing a song about gay pride?

KYLE GETZ

She-

FUCKING DAN

Fuck her!

KYLE GETZ

Woo

MIKE JOHNSON

Wow.

FUCKING DAN

I am tired of straight people culturally appropriating gay pride. This year is offensive.

KYLE GETZ

She went to the-

FUCKING DAN

Oh my god.

KYLE GETZ

She went to the Stonewall Inn to perform there.

FUCKING DAN

Congratulations. You walked down the street.

KYLE GETZ

And, to your credit, I made fun of her as well, especially like on Twitter. She also raised money and signatures for the Equality Act. But it all, it all feels like there’s something about it, even though she’s doing good things. It’s like it doesn’t feel

FUCKING DAN

Is the Equality Act the name of her new album?

KYLE GETZ

Well, that’s the thing about like, “I recorded a new song that now you have to go buy and it’s about, I don’t know, it’s just in time for gay pride.” It doesn’t- there’s something about it that feels weird and feels off.

PUP KERO

Yeah, I, I have a friend who used to work with us at Trader Joe’s. And, you know, they wanted something new, they wanted to go to new place. They wanted to change their life. They wanted to move away, went to Utah. You know, Trader Joe’s transfer down to Utah, went all the way down there, got there, started working and the boss was like, “gosh, you know, I need you- I need you to stop acting so gay.”

[gasps]

MIKE JOHNSON

Whaaat.

PUP KERO

And yeah, they just were like dead in their tracks. They were like, “I’m sorry, this is the way I am.” And they’re like, “no. Your little crop top, nope. You need a full shirt. You need to you know, no shorts, make sure you get pants.” And they were like, “no, no.” And they were like, “We can’t have you being so gay here. We’re sorry, we can’t have it.” And they were like, “if you can’t change, I’m gonna let you go.” But you know, fuck Utah. fuck, straight people, fuck it all.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Like, no, I just was- I was like, “Man, you got to tell them they can’t change you.” And they were like, “yeah, you know, I don’t lose my job, though.” And I’m like, “Oh, just, to be put in that situation.”

KYLE GETZ

Yeah,

PUP KERO

And I mean, if it was me there, I would have exploded to that fucking manager. I would be like, “you think you’re fucking firing me? Yeah, you fucking fire me. I’ll sue your ass. You try. You cannot expect to change a person. You can’t make me straight acting. You can’t. It does not work, you can’t do it.”

KYLE GETZ

That’s why we need the Equality Act, which will help protect everyone from these kind of situations. Thanks for the help Taylor Swift. You’re doing- you’re getting us there.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

Yes, exactly.

MIKE JOHNSON

So Kero, do you have a gayest and straightest?

PUP KERO

I do. I do. There was a straight wedding that was great. A friend of mine, ex who was dating this other person, they were kind of dating. Great. Invited me. “Sure. Sure I’ll go hang out at a wedding. Yeah, we’re not.” I just sitting there chatting and I was trying to- I mean, I was- nobody knew sign there, so I was trying to read people’s lips all the time. I was the only person, nobody knew any signing and stuff, though. It was just you know, just lip reading, lip reading, lip reading. Trying to focus on one person at a time, it was really tough. And then one person asked me, “Hey, you want to dance?” And I’m like, “Sure.” So we went out and danced. and there was a person like off over there and they were looking and they were like, he did this sign like the limp wrist sign. And he was like, “Oh, you’re a faggot, aren’t you?” And I saw that out of the corner of my eye as I was dancing, and I tapped the person and I’m like, “hey, just so you know, this guy over here, you know, I mean, he’s calling me a faggot.” We like looked over and he like, “you’re fags, you’re fags.” And the person I was with got so angry. And I was like, “No, no, just forget it. Forget it. No just hold on.” You know, it’s best friend’s wedding. I don’t want to cause a scene. So we just kept dancing and stuff. And that person kept on, just kept on, “you over there, you’re a fag, you’re a fag.” And I eventually lost my cool. I lost my cool. So I decided to just go over there. And I was like, “Look,” I was I was trying to talk actually. And I was like, “Look, if you can’t accept this, get the fuck out.” And the wedding couple heard me because I think I screamed, and they came up and like, “are you okay? Are you okay? What happened, Foster? Are you aright?” And I’m like, you know, “he kept calling me fag like over and over and over like as I’m dancing with this person.” And so they told him to get out actually.

KYLE GETZ

Oh, nice.

PUP KERO

So getting the support from these people was awesome. That was a great moment. That was great moment.

KYLE GETZ

That’s so sweet. I mean-

PUP KERO

I mean, if you can’t accept gay people just like, ugh,

PUP KERO

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was ready to beat his ass, honestly, I was, but it was not worth it, it was not worth it.

KYLE GETZ

That sucks that happened to you. But that’s good you have friends that were on your side.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. Being at a straight wedding. I don’t know for some reason just always reminds me that I’m not straight, like it just, yeah. What about gay- you’ve shared with us before recording and during break some gay moments. What’s your gayest thing?

PUP KERO

Um, gay… so many gay moments.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

I mean, I was just scrolling through my phone. I was looking at Scruff. And then I went to sent files. And then I was, you know, just going, I mean, every day. I check them out every day, every day, every day, every day, every day, and trying to meet folks. And you know, sometimes I’m just like, you know, most of the time I say no, I mean, I got two jobs to focus on work, right. But I am available on Fridays and Saturdays and so putting myself out there was pretty gay.

[laughter]

KYLE GETZ

Trying to balance your time between work and Scruff. That’s, that’s gay.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s pretty gay.

PUP KERO

Oh, yeah. That’s very good. That’s very gay.

KYLE GETZ

Awesome.

MIKE JOHNSON

So that’s it. A special thank you to Kero for being on the show today. We really appreciate it. Thank you.

KYLE GETZ

Yes. Thanks for being on.

PUP KERO

Oh, I am so glad to be here with all of you. And thank you to our interpreter.

MIKE JOHNSON

That was next to my list you you’re taking my material. Thank you to Brad Galloway and HSDC interpreting services for making this even possible. That’s really awesome.

KYLE GETZ

Yeah. So that’s it.

MIKE JOHNSON

That’s it. This has been Gayish. I’m Mike Johnson.

KYLE GETZ

I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. See you next week.

MIKE JOHNSON

See you next week.

Outro Music [upbeat instrumental]

FUCKING DAN

And you’re a total fucking whore, Kyle.

[laughter]

PUP KERO

You didn’t tell me you’re a whore. We could be whores together.

[Transcribed by https://otter.ai + KYLE GETZ.]

Category: Uncategorized

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