Ezra Michel (@ezramichelmusic) joins us to talk about everything: the word “pussyboy,” bisexuality, Grindr, male privilege, chasers, HRT, addiction, gender dysphoria, self-harm, big clits, t4t, and more.
In this episode: News- 4:30 || Main Topic (Transgender)- 15:37 || Guest (Ezra Michel)- 21:21 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:01:37
Follow Ezra on:
– @ezramichelmusic on IG & TikTok
– @p_ssyboyapparel on IG, or visit pussyboyapparel.com
– @welcomehomehair on IG
Tickets for our 6th anniversary live show mini-tour go on pre-sale starting May 1 (except NYC, which is already in pre-sale). Visit www.gayishpodcast.com/live for details and tickets. We can’t wait to see you!
The next Patreon happy hour is on May 3 @ 6pm Pacific / 9pm Eastern. Anyone at any level of support is welcome, so join today at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that must have three strikes, because we are out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs] And so many balls before that. [Kyle chuckles] I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…
KYLE GETZ
Today…
MIKE JOHNSON
…We’re gonna talk about trans stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We are doing our long-requested, long-awaited interview with a transmasc person. We’ve talked to a transfem person, we’ve talked to a nonbinary person, we- I mean, we’ve had other trans people on in general, but this is that kind of, like, let’s just ask all the questions you’re not supposed to, so you don’t do it. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep. That’s exactly right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And, boy, my list of questions is juicy.
KYLE GETZ
Ooooo, interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. He’s in for a wild ride.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, but first…
KYLE GETZ
But first…
MIKE JOHNSON
Quick correction. [Kyle gasps] At the risk of being church racist and saying that they all are alike, I messed up the story last week when I said that the church in Zillah that hosted the Romeo and Juliet play that had everybody upset because of the trans rights thing and the potentially gender-nonconforming person that was cast as Romeo, it was not the Church of Godzilla. It was the Church of the Nazarene. Those are different churches. They’re not all the same.
KYLE GETZ
You’re welcome, Zillah, for that correction.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You were on pins and needles.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. That’s it! It’s a different church, Kyle. They have more than one church in Zillah, believe it or not.
KYLE GETZ
Oo, good for them!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Well, or, bad for us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you know. Okay. Hey, everybody!
KYLE GETZ
Hey, buddies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuckin’ listen up.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, hi.
MIKE JOHNSON
You dickbags.
KYLE GETZ
Hi, friends.
MIKE JOHNSON
We are going on a tour this year. It’s a six city stop, not to be confused with the three-hour tour in Gilligan’s Island. Tickets are on sale May the 1st, and our production assistant Derek reminded me that this is the last episode before that.
KYLE GETZ
I did, but thanks. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
No, no! Let- Give- Let’s give Derek credit where he doesn’t deserve it. Uh, yeah, tickets are on sale May the 1st. Please buy the tickets.
KYLE GETZ
Those are presale tickets, so they are gonna be discounted for now. So now’s your chance to swoop in and get your tickets.
MIKE JOHNSON
Except for New York City, because those were- have already been in presale and will stay in presale until May 1st and then they will go up in price unless you’re a Patreon person. Also, I’ll be posting to Patreon the discount code, which gets you 50% off. That will also happen May the 1st, so check the app before you buy your tickets so that you can get- you can get, you know, cash money back.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. And, Patreon, you get your discount no matter when you buy it. That’s one of your- the benefits that we’re doing this time around. But please, if you’re gonna come, please buy tickets so we know. It’s really helpful to, like, have numbers and stuff.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So even though you don’t have- there’s no rush because your discount is permanent-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-it’ll help us.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it sooner rather than later because it helps my blood pressure.
KYLE GETZ
[sighing] Yeah, yeah. Samesies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, everybody, I just want- I don’t- I want everybody to know we’re not even gonna break even on this tour.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, one way to talk all of these fuckin’ bars into letting us do our gay-ass podcast was saying that we were gonna buy you all a drink. [Kyle chuckles] So, like, at least half of your ticket is just a drink ticket, like, so that you can, you know, have a cocktail with us. So-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We’re doin’ this for the love of the game.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah. Just- Just- Just- Just keep that in mind, that, like, your ticket price includes a beverage. That’s all.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Come out. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. We’re gonna- We’re excited to- Like Mike said, we’re doing these shows not to make money or anything – because we won’t – but just because we love doing them, and people have wanted for us to start doing live shows, and it’s great to see people. So, come out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Yep, absolutely. It’s gayishpodcast.com/live, is where all of the details are. But uh, that’s June 4th in New York, June 23rd here in Seattle, July 29th in Chicago, August 13th in San Francisco, September 10th in Los Angeles, and October 15th in Houston, right in Kyle’s back… hole.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah. So, do it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do it. Now the news?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the first: Barry Humphries, known for his drag persona Dame Edna Everage, is dead at the age of 89. Now, I mention him because I don’t want people to give me the “I can’t believe you didn’t,” bullshit. And-
KYLE GETZ
Mm. And a good reason to- A good motivator for anything! [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And I- But I want to- I want to be clear that he’s problematic.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And I don’t necessarily want to, like, gloss over that. Like, it’s okay to be sad. He was a big deal… and kind of problematic. So, he was hilarious, a genius, um, and for sure like a pioneer in bringing drag into the mainstream like well before RuPaul was even fuckin’ born, right? He’s been doing drag as mainstream comedy things since the 50s and 60s, but he did say some pretty heinous shit about trans people in 2016. He was wholly unapologetic about it and then doubled down to talk about political correctness as being a disease and that cancel culture is ruining comedy. Um, he was also maybe racist? At least told a racist joke that Salma Hayek got involved in and was super pissed about. So, anyway, just, like, he’s a big deal and funny, and it’s okay to be sad. He was an almost 90, product of his time, blah, blah, blah, but also kind of a problematic dude. Also, he was straight and married, so whatever.
KYLE GETZ
Huh. Weird.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What a weird guy. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Yeah, weird dude.
KYLE GETZ
Huh. I mean, we talked about him at a party. Like, it was big enough that, like, this came up in our friend group, so, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Exactly right.
KYLE GETZ
It’s, like- I don’t really know why I know him, but I know him. Like, he’s just kind of that ubiquitous.
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, that’s what an icon is, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, not A-list. Okay, uh, [Kyle laughs] news the second. So, the United States House of Representatives, which I will remind you is controlled by the dickbag asshole fuckface party the Republican GOP party, has passed the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act-
KYLE GETZ
Oh no.
MIKE JOHNSON
-which prohibits those assigned male at birth from competing on female sports teams in K-12 schools and universities that receive federal funding.
KYLE GETZ
Not, like, working on making sure they get equal pay, or opportunities, or access, or any of the actual issues that affect women’s sports.
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct. [Kyle chuckles] Correct, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Cool, let’s protect those women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or anything else that matters, right.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it was along party lines 219 to 203. There were 13 people who didn’t vote, which, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know, way to stay on the fence for that one. But it’s also just theater. It’s all theater. It is dead on arrival in the Democrat-controlled Senate so this will not pass into law, but they just are totally, you know, creating a situation where they can say “We tried to save women and the Democrats fucked it up!” because it’s- this is their wedge issue. Like, abortion is our wedge issue, their issue is trans stuff. Anyway, so-
KYLE GETZ
We shouldn’t downplay, like, that they are then directly negatively impacting trans people’s lives. So, although they’re using that for political game, then they’re like shitting on a giant part of our community, which sucks to be the recipient of that dump.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Wow, that was not my best metaphor.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, which- But so- It’s not working in the federal level, because the Democrats control the White House and the Senate. But at the state level, shit is fucked and is getting worse. So this is news to be.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Which is that a trans lawmaker in the state of Montana has been denied the opportunity to speak until she apologizes for saying lawmakers would have, quote, “blood on their hands” if they supported a bill that bans gender-affirming medical care for trans youth.
KYLE GETZ
Well, stop killing trans people then – you know? – and then you won’t have blood on your hands anymore.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That seems like a you problem.
MIKE JOHNSON
This is her first term in the state house and- Go ahead.
KYLE GETZ
The party that loves free speech is not letting her speak. Like- [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. For sure. For sure. Also- Well, okay, so there’s a couple of things. She also references the small government thing, that, like, quote, “It’s hypocritical, but it’s coming from a caucus who talks about limited government as their goal, and then the very same caucus is pushing to take away medical care [that] is accepted by every major medical association from people like me.” “I think there’s inherently a hypocritical nature there, but I’m not surprised that they would stoop so low as to misgender me.” In all of the press releases released by the Republicans, they repeatedly referred to her using male pronouns. And just- It’s disgusting. It’s absolutely disgusting. What she actually said: “The only thing I will say is, if you vote yes on this bill and yes on these amendments, I hope the next time there’s an invocation when you bow your heads in prayer, you see the blood on your hands.”
KYLE GETZ
Oooh, that’s great.
MIKE JOHNSON
So they say that she is being uncivil. The speaker of the house, Matt Regier [said “reh-GEAR”] – Regier? [“reh-JEE-ER”] Regier? [“reh-JEE-ay”] I dunno, he’s a fucker – says, quote, “It’s up to me to maintain decorum here on the house floor, to protect dignity and integrity, and any representative that I don’t think can do that will not be recognized.” She posted a picture of her microphone with her “I want to talk” light on it’s been like that.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
She has said “My light is on, and I am ready to speak on behalf of the constituents who elected me to do so.” It’s really interesting to me that it’s like, I don’t know, legal to, like, just like ignore an elected representative. Like, you just don’t get to participate in… what’s in the constitution? It just is fuckin’ crazy to me.
KYLE GETZ
And one person gets to be like “Do I call on you or not?” Like, this isn’t like Mrs. Hampton’s 3rd grade class where, like, “Billy, you’ve talked too much. Like, let’s keep it quiet for a second,” this is, like, someone that was elected to speak.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Oh, Montana, why do you have to be like this? Oh, everywhere else that’s red or even purple?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, America.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why are you like this? This is why we can’t have nice things.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, she said “I am going to continue to do what I was sent here to do. I will punch in on every bill that I feel like I have things to say about things to speak on. And I will punch in, ask, and demand to be recognized.” “Where that goes from here depends largely on the Speaker and the body — if they are going to see fit to allow me to partake in debate as is my right as a duly elected representative of the state of Montana.” Good luck. Uhh, news the last.
KYLE GETZ
Great.
MIKE JOHNSON
My favorite news story of the week.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, Lizzo.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Oh, yea yea yea yea yea yea yea.
MIKE JOHNSON
Lizzo was in Knoxville, Tennessee at Thompson-Boling Arena and invited a bunch of drag queens to join her on stage, which is… not yet illegal? But, um, the state of Tennessee-
KYLE GETZ
It’s trying to be.
MIKE JOHNSON
About a month ago, Republican Governor Bill Lee signed into law a bill that criminalizes public drag performances but that bill has been temporarily halted after a Memphis-based theatre group sued. So, it’s legal for now on a court technicality kind of a thing. So- But Lizzo’s definitely, like, flaunting “I brought drag queens with me, here we go. Fuckin’ deal with it.”
KYLE GETZ
That’s how you do it. That was amazing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s how you use your platform and your- Like, there are certain people that have the ability to make a statement, and make a big splash, and make a show, and it’s a very small number of people that can do things like that and she’s one of them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. During the show she said, quote, “In light of recent and tragic events and current events, I was told by people on the internet, ‘Cancel your shows in Tennessee,’ ‘Don’t go to Tennessee.’” “Their reason was valid, but why would I not come to the people who need to hear this message the most?”
KYLE GETZ
Mm. That’s kind of a consistent thing, like you hear people say “Well, like, we’re not going to this state,” and that- You know, for whatever reason. Like, I remember this happening around bathroom bills.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And people would be like “Oh, well we’re not gonna go to your state then because of that bill,” and I can see that being a useful tactic.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you don’t get our money and people are- But then, I also see people going and- But, if you’re gonna go, do something like make a donation, or make a statement, or make a point out of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I think both can be true, and they don’t cancel each other out at all, that a business who has nothing to do with queer shit can say “Change your shit or we’re pulling our business out.” Like the NCAA or, like, fuckin’ Salesforce did that in Indiana during the RFRA stuff. That is totally valid. I also think queer people – queer content makers – can and totally should go to those places and give them the giant middle finger in person, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, saying “Be nicer to gay people or we’re out”: valid. Gay people going to a place of saying “Here we are, we’re fuckin’ gay, deal with us”: valid.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, the drag queens that were featured included Asia O’Hara, Aquaria, Kandy Muse, and Vanessa Vanjie from RuPaul drag race. There’s a fuck ton of them, and my favorite part is that, even with all that fabulousness, Lizzo still is like- stands out in this picture. [Kyle laughs] She’s like- Lizzo might be my favorite drag queen now. [Kyle laughs] Anyway, fuck you, Tennessee, and the horse you rode in on.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Thanks, Lizzo. Um, I would like to spea-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s the news!
KYLE GETZ
Oh, right. [Mike laughs] I was already on to- I was moving this ship forward.
MIKE JOHNSON
Crack that whip.
KYLE GETZ
Someone’s got to, and it’s not-
MIKE JOHNSON
Crack that whip! Devo. Now we gotta add that to the list.
KYLE GETZ
Licorice whip. That’s the Simpsons. Um, I would like to thank [chuckles] both licorice whips and the following new Patreon members- one new Patreon member: Philip and Gilbert.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that really two?
KYLE GETZ
I don’t know, Philip and Gilbert, are we being honest about how many people are signing up for this account?
MIKE JOHNSON
Why does that sound like Bert and Ernie to me?
KYLE GETZ
It sounded like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern [both chuckle] or something, to me. I’m gonna just- Instead, this is Philbert.
MIKE JOHNSON
Philbert?
KYLE GETZ
Yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Welcome.
KYLE GETZ
Because you’re only allowed to have one name, sorry.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
You can’t have two people. Thank you, Philbert- or Gillip? Nope, Philbert.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Philbert” is better.
KYLE GETZ
Um, if you want to join Patreon, get bonus content, have me try to say your name-
MIKE JOHNSON
Get 50% off your live show tickets!
KYLE GETZ
50% of your live show ticket… we have a happy hour coming up, so now’s a great time to join, on May the 3rd at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. We all get together, have drinks, chat. It’s a lot of fun. So, you can join for just $2 and everyone is invited. So look out for the details that’ll be posted on May the 3rd to the Patreon app. There’s a lot to check Patreon for.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. You should, like, make sure that your Patreon account works and that your shit is up to date.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Because that’s- We use it for talking to you about stuff.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah, so make sure you join, and see us there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great. You wanna talk about trans stuff?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s do it. Um, so, I wanted to start off with- We are, of course- I think maybe I could have, or we could have, done a better job of this in previous discussions where this is like the topic and what we’re doing, is, like, we are interviewing one person.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And there are a variety of experiences.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, like, I think, partially, one of the reason that we got requests for transmasc is both it’s another experience that is important showcase, and transfem people do get a lot more kind of visibility in like in actors, and models, and people you think of tend to be trans women.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, want to make sure we give the spotlight to everyone. But then, of course, in doing so we will- There’s plenty of other people and experiences out there, but I just wanted to-
MIKE JOHNSON
Also, it feels- It feels like, these days, there’s more focus on trans women like because of sports, because of like bathroom bills and stuff. Like- Like, I’m not gonna say “Trans men have it easier,” because they clearly don’t, but they don’t seem to be the target as much lately.
KYLE GETZ
Mm. It’s interesting, and maybe we’ll ask- We’re gonna have Ezra on, who I saw on Instagram…
MIKE JOHNSON
Pussyboy!
KYLE GETZ
Pussyboy. [both chuckle] Um, so we’ll talk him more about just his experience and all that. But, just for now, I wanted to give an overview from Pew Research-
MIKE JOHNSON
Pew, Pew.
KYLE GETZ
Sure. [Mike laughs] …Uh, from 2022 that said-
MIKE JOHNSON
I love the look on your face. You paused and you- Like, you-
KYLE GETZ
It was like “This was happening,” and w- [Mike laughs] I thought we were gonna breeze past it real quick, but we’re hovering in this area. That’s fine.
MIKE JOHNSON
One of these days I won’t be able to control myself, and surprise you.
KYLE GETZ
I- You’re- You’re right, I would be very surprised.
MIKE JOHNSON
I did not today. Go ahead. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
So, 1.6% of people in the US say that their gender is different than that assigned to them at birth, which, I like that question that it’s not just like “Are you a trans man or woman? Or are-” You know, it’s not limiting it. It’s just “Is your gender different than that assigned to you at birth?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Of those- And this is where we will- Like, they will not give us this full spectrum of all possible identities but at least the data they have is, of that 1.6%, the .6 are trans men or women and 1% is nonbinary.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Of course, there are other identities that could be- Like, we could discuss in here genderfluid people, genderqueer, two-spirit. Like, there are a lot of different identities beyond just these, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
And then also, what I was surprised by, I didn’t realize this, for the people ages 18 to 29 that number is 5%. 5% say they are not their gender assigned at birth.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, wow.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So this is one of those things where we don’t know the true number of trans people, because they are so discriminated against. Go see our episode on left-handedness. It’s not that there’re more left-handed people, we just stopped being shitty to them. Like, there are not more trans people in the world, it’s just becoming more well known. People now can put a word to their experience.
MIKE JOHNSON
Or, counterpoint: remember when we said the glitter was transiting the fish?
KYLE GETZ
Or-
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe drag queen’s sequins are transing our kids.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh, drag queen’s sequins are the new… fish glitter. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
You all knew it was coming. You could have predicted that sentence from a mile away. Um, yeah, so I think we’ll get to see the real number, you know, as it becomes more talked about and hopefully more-
MIKE JOHNSON
You like to bring up the left-handed thing pretty regularly, right? That, like, left-handedness, there’s this huge rise and left-handedness that is not because people are more left-handed, it’s that we stopped being shitty to them.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Exactly. So, another just interesting data point: 44% of people, again in the US, say they know a trans person personally.
MIKE JOHNSON
How many percent?
KYLE GETZ
44.
MIKE JOHNSON
That seems high to me.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s going to be one of the ways that there’s a difference, is, as you know- And this- Same is true of gay people. Like, the more you like get to know actual humans and not think of people as identities-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-then the more you treat them with respect. Unless you’re Republican.
MIKE JOHNSON
It is easy to hate an idea, it is hard to hate a person.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Visibility matters.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
#ComeOut. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. That’s beautiful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
You almost- You- Maybe a little bit more, uh, selling at the end next time, but-
MIKE JOHNSON
I mean, I didn’t know where I was going with it when I started the sentence, so. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Podcasting. That’s what podcasting is, it’s starting something you don’t know how to finish? That’s also like sex with me. [Mike chuckles] Um, anything else before we…?
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m sure- Well, we may or may not reiterate this with him when he when he when he joins us. And I just want to be clear to everybody…
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yes.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re going to ask questions because we have been given explicit permission to ask these questions. This is shit that you should not just casually ask a trans person. You just- Just don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
We get to because this is our show.
KYLE GETZ
And this is what we’re doing, and we’re like- And It’s okay to be curious about things. Also, what- Where do you- How do you channel your curiosity? Like, listen to this or you can look things up online. Plenty of people are willing to share their stories. But yeah, this is all shit- Don’t ask a trans person any of this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Just don’t.
KYLE GETZ
Just don’t.
MIKE JOHNSON
Don’t. Um, okay, great. So, we’re gonna take a break and when we get back we’re gonna have Ezra with us, Pussyboy, and we’re gonna have a big ole chat.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, um, should we take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s take a break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
So are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] We’re back.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and we want to welcome Ezra Michel to the show! Thank you so much for being here.
EZRA MICHEL
Thanks for having me.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, so, I discovered you through Instagram and then I quickly discovered your use of the word “pussyboy”. [chuckles] So there’s-
EZRA MICHEL
Mm, yes.
KYLE GETZ
We want to ask you about a lot of things, but I thought that might be a place to start. Like, tell me a little bit about the word “pussyboy”.
MIKE JOHNSON
And that’s not just a thing that we called you at the top of the show, that’s, like, your-
KYLE GETZ
We did reference it, but you- [Mike laughs] Yes, you use that word when- [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
Yes, yes, I use that word. I love that word. It’s, uh- It started because I was making a Reel on Instagram about having a UTI, and it was like a vulnerable Reel. I just, like, started talking and I just posted it. It was like… I said the word “pussy” in reference to my own body, and it was the first time that I had ever said it publicly. Like, I used it in like personal life, like, for a while, but it was the first time- And I knew when I posted it, I was like “Wow, I said the word ‘pussy’ like three times in this video.” [Mike and Kyle laugh] “I wonder- Like, I wonder what’s gonna happen. I wonder if people will, like, notice.” And, of course, tran- binary trans guys noticed. And some of the binary trans guys that had been following me decided to publicly announce they’re unfollowing me because of that word. And I noti- I was just like “Wow, that is so incredible, that one word has that effect on us as a community.” And I remember being really triggered by that word myself at one point in my transition. And, um- I don’t know, it just sort of like made me think about, like, how I healed from it. And it was just from exposure to it, and starting to use it playfully, and getting comfortable with my body, and getting comfortable with that word. And it just sort of like dawned on me like “Oh, I could make a funny phrase out of this, like ‘pussyboy’,” and as like a reclamation or like a way to expose myself to it in a way that was fun.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I was just gonna ask if that feels like reclamation, if that’s like empowerment-through-taking-it-back kind of a thing.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, it was a way that- A lot of times, I felt- I felt emasculated.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
You know? Like, I’d be on Grindr and like people would message me telling me that I was hot or whatever and that they didn’t mind that I had a pussy, as opposed to, like, you know, being excited by it. It was like “Oh, like, I don’t mind, even, that you have one. Like, it’s okay with me,” and I’m like “That’s not… [chuckles] If you think that that’s a way into my pants, that’s not.” [all chuckle] You know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, you mentioned Grindr, so first- Right out of the gate, like, what is your sexual orientation, gender identity, pronouns, all of that?
EZRA MICHEL
I use he/him pronouns primarily, but all pronouns are fine with me. I identify as bisexual because I think it’s a cute word. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
I’ve never heard that explanation for why someone identifies as bisexual, but I love it.
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, it’s like cute, it’s historic. Like, there’s more history to it. I think it’s like… mm, bi! [Mike and Kyle laugh] Um, and uh, “queer” is fine. I guess, like, “pansexual” is a word that probably encompasses my sexuality the best but I don’t like that word. It’s just, like, annoying to me, so-
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And then, I identify as a trans man, a nonbinary trans man.
KYLE GETZ
Talk to me about- Like, some people may be confused at the idea of, like… “man”, the fact that “man” is in there feels binary but you’re saying “nonbinary trans man”. Can you tell me about those two words working together?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I mean, I like identifying as a man. I think it’s a fun like little “Haha, me too.” Like, I’m in this club as well.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
EZRA MICHEL
Like… I don’t know, like, there’s a part of me that just feels like it’s important to take up space in that category to diversify [chuckles] what it means to be a man, you know? And I do walk through the world as a man, so I have a lot of male privilege. I know what it feels like to not have male privilege and then have male privilege, and there is a- There’s such a thing as male privilege and it does exist. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I can definitely confirm. I love the way I’m treated now, it’s awesome compared to what it was like before.
KYLE GETZ
I should have mentioned up top: you are a musician, a model, you created- You’re locked into- You created PUSSYBOY APPAREL. That word is big in your presence. You’re a barber. So, you are- You do a lot of things, so I should have mentioned that. But, okay- I- It’s interesting, so few people can have the experience of gaining male privilege in a way that you’re describing. What don’t people that have just lived their lives as men having that privilege and not recognizing it- Like, what- How did that change? What did that change for you?
EZRA MICHEL
I guess it just made me more confident, like more certain that people would listen to me when I started speaking. When my voice dropped, the way that I could grab people’s attention was different. The way that I could keep people’s attention was different. And I’m somebody who, like, you know, even though I have like a- Like, my voice registers as male most of the time. I still sometimes get misgendered on the phone, because I- like, I sound like a faggot, [Mike and Kyle laugh] and we know that.
KYLE GETZ
For those that can’t see, there’s a little bit of a hand- a wrist motion that accompanied that.
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, we all know- Like, yeah, it’s kind of like- I talked like this before my voice dropped, and then once my voice dropped I was like getting- like, people were receiving me as a gay man, a cis gay man. And I was like “Why does everyone think I’m gay?” I just really didn’t think to myself “Oh, like, the way that I speak is gonna stay the same, it’s just- it’s gonna be in a lower register,” so I still sound very effeminate in the way that I speak. That didn’t change from testosterone.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
EZRA MICHEL
I guess, like, why I said that is because, like, I have male privilege but I have the male privilege of like an effeminate gay man. So there’s still, like, you know, I still like people disregarding what I’m saying. You know, mechanics, and construction workers, and things like that. [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Do you- Are you good with like things like cars, or construction, or like home stuff? Like, I am not good at- Someone should disregard me absolutely, because I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. Do you- Are you good at-
EZRA MICHEL
I actually do.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
My dad is a plumbing contractor and I worked for him for two years, so I know plumbing-
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
-and I know a lot of construction. I built my barber shop, actually. I made that barber shop.
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
Very cool.
KYLE GETZ
That’s really impressive. Good for you, damn, I wish I knew stuff like that.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m really thankful that when the zombie apocalypse happens there will still be people that can get shit done in the world [Mike and Kyle chuckle] in the world, so.
EZRA MICHEL
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, me and my partner watch Survivor and I’m always like “I could do that. I could do that.” I could eat a worm.
KYLE GETZ
I’m like- They like show up and get off the plane and I’m like… I would be outskies. Like, right now is about when I would quit. They’re like “Welcome,” and I’d be like “Okay, thank you. Bye.” Like, I- [Mike and Ezra chuckle] Yeah. I’m really curious, you talked a little bit about your experience on Grindr, like, man, what’s- Grindr I already think of- I got kicked off Grindr, so I don’t know what it’s- I don’t- Who knows what it’s been like.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s not gotten better, how ‘bout that. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
I just think of it as a really toxic place already, so yeah, what’s being on Grindr or what has it been like?
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, I used to use it. I don’t use it anymore. Me and my partner are monogamous. But when I was out there, you know, for the most part it was unsolicited dick pics and people trying to get my nudes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Mm.
EZRA MICHEL
And I hooked up with, like, probably I would say like under 10 people from Grindr and none of them were incredibly like life changing or anything. It was just always like “Oh, you came, and now we’re done. Awesome.” [Kyle chuckles] ‘Cause like, gay- Like, cis gay men often are like really turned on by the fact that I- Like, I guess the people that are like reaching out to me and like actually making an effort, they’re turned on by my juxtaposition of parts. They’re like “This is hot,” “You’re hot,” whatever. And then, once we like get together and actually we’re like meeting up in person, they seem to get like little nervous. Like, they’re like all talk. They’re like “I’m gonna eat your pussy and you’re gonna cum like 10 times,” and I’m like “Ugh, I doubt it,” but, like… [Mike and Kyle laugh] if you say so. Like, if you really s- And then they’ll go down on me for like two minutes and then feel like, you know, whatever, like they didn’t achieve what they thought they’d achieve in two minutes. And then they’re like, “Did you cum?” and I’m like “Bitch, no.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Girl, no, [chuckles] I didn’t. You’d know.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Would give you an A for effort, but you don’t deserve it,” right?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, you don’t deserve it. And then- Yeah. I mean, it- That was like how- That was like a very consistent experience for me. So, I kind of gave up on the hookup thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
A lot of trans guys I’m aware of on social media or dating apps feel- They talk about trans chasers as being a thing. Um, I would assume that that’s most interactions. Is that true?
EZRA MICHEL
I don’t know. I have a hard time with that because it’s, like, I prefer people who, like, are transamorous – people who, like, like trans people or are attracted to trans people – because there’s a higher chance that they’re like experienced with us. Yeah, so it’s like- It’s, like, a fine line between people who are just genuinely attracted to trans people versus people who fetishize us. And I feel like the chasers are the ones who just dehumanize us and see us as like sexual objects, as opposed to human beings with a really rich history, and like an interesting past, and like an interesting story. Because, like, that can be a really attractive quality in somebody, to, like- You know, I’m attracted to trans people because we’re like fascinating and cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
EZRA MICHEL
You know? In a human way, not just like “Oh, like, hot. That guy has a pussy. Like, holes,” you know? “Boy with holes.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
EZRA MICHEL
Which is like- You know, I get it, but also, like, it’s not nice…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
…to be seen as a boy with just some holes.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’ve seen a lot of dudes – cis dudes – who have on their profile that they are “trans competent”. That’s a- That’s a identifier I’ve seen.
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
Do you have a reaction to that, as like a thing to put in a profile?
EZRA MICHEL
[chuckles] I mean, that’s a little cocky. [Mike and Kyle laugh] I think that I wouldn’t- I wouldn’t pursue somebody who’s, like, boasting about that. I’d probably be like “Eugh, cringe,” personally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I just- You know, don’t be weird about it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, that’s the thing. Like, don’t be all weird. Like… it’s not- It’s not attractive. Like- But maybe some trans people would be like “Oh, that’s a safe person,” you know? I just think that’s cringe as hell.
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Makes sense.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, you talked a little bit about being on testosterone. How- Tell me about your HRT journey. Like, what was that like?
EZRA MICHEL
Well, I was 18 when I started. I’m 27 now, turning 28 soon so I’m like 9 years as of March 3rd. 9 years on T… which makes me like a grandpa in the community. [Mike laughs] Like, quite frankly, like, I am a seasoned old man. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
EZRA MICHEL
But I look like a twink still, so that’s my superpower [Mike and Kyle chuckle] is that I actually have like quite a- quite a- I don’t know. I have a lot of history. I know a lot about the community and what it’s been like for the past nine years. It’s changed so much, so- But being on T, you know, it’s just been life-saving for me. When I started T I was in heavy drug addiction and alcoholism, like in active use. I was 18 and I was really close to killing myself, and even in the haze of addiction, and all of it, and not knowing anything about the medical system, or insurance, or anything like that, and living all by myself, I still managed to make my way over to a free clinic in San Francisco and start hormones. And that, I think, really saved my life. Um, and eventually, like, gave me the clarity and the comfort to get sober. So, I think it really did save my life.
KYLE GETZ
I mean, I appreciate you like talking about that and sharing all of that. And it sounds like a lot, and I’m curious. Like, I hear that phrase, like “It’s life-saving,” and I’m curious to know, like, can you like maybe tell me a little bit more about that phrase? Like, what- What does it do or give you? Or, in what ways is it life-saving?
EZRA MICHEL
That’s a really good question. Uh, [chuckles] well, for me, I grew up like- Like, I was a really “troubled teen”, quote unquote. Like I didn’t go to school, I dropped out a bunch, I was really- I was just like rebellious in a lot of ways and it’s- I think that, for me, my discomfort gave me the sense of, like, “It doesn’t really matter what I do to myself because it’s not my body.”
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I didn’t know how to identify with my body. So, like, when you look at your body you’re like “Oh, this is my body. Like, whatever,” not even a question. But for me it was like these parts literally felt like they weren’t… mine. Um, and so I didn’t care what happened to them. So it wasn’t this, like, natural, like “Oh, I just- Like, I need to protect myself.” It was like “I don’t give a fuck about what happens to me,” so I tossed myself into a lot of dangerous situations. I- I just was always putting my life on the line because I needed like an adrenaline rush in order to feel alive, and in order to feel like I existed. I needed to go to extremes all the time. So, it was like- That’s how the alcoholism and stuff just really like skyrocketed at such a young age, because I was just like “Oh, at least I can feel something and not feel the discomfort of being in my skin…” you know, “…while I’m high,” or whatever. So, in a lot of ways, it’s like- it’s life-saving because it’s like… it allowed me to recognize myself in the mirror and be able to recognize my body as mine so that I could want to keep it alive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
You know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
That’s the best way to explain it, I think.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that- When we when we talk about gender dysphoria, is that what you’re describing? Is that- Is that the experience? What I guess I’m asking is, like, what you’re talking about is very existential to me. It’s like, you know, your lived experience versus the truth. And, uh- But sometimes I hear gender dysphoria as being something that sounds more acute, right? Like, it’s sensations in your body or like a physical discomfort. Is that true? I- Can you say more about gender dysphoria for me?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. Yeah! I think- Well, I mean, obviously, like, everybody’s description of it is gonna be different because they have their own, you know, perspective on their own experience, right? But for me it’s a lot- like, it was very emotional. It was very, like, existential like you said. Like, it was like “This isn’t mine! Like, what- What is mine? What is a body? What is a mind?” Like, what makes something feel like mine versus not?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And, like, how can I live in this reality knowing that this is my body but then, like, act like it’s not? Like, how- Like, I was having these thoughts at like age 8.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I was like trippin’ out on this shit while other kids were just like playing in the sandbox. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] I’m just, like, sitting in the grass just like trippin’ out. [Mike chuckles] Uh, so, that for me is the main aspect of dysphoria, but then also there was a discomfort. There was like a physical sensation. There was a- I kept- When I was younger, I would try to explain to my therapist “I just want to unzip my skin and walk out of it.” I just wanted- I felt, like, claustrophobic and I would, like, grab at my skin and try to like pull on it to like get ou- Like, it was like- It was like a horror movie for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Did people understand that?
EZRA MICHEL
Hah! No. [Kyle chuckles] No. And I was- I was one of those kids that wasn’t trying to hide anything. I wasn’t like sneaking around. Like, I was really out loud “Hey, I’m in pain. I need help. I’m cutting myself. Here’s my scars. Like, give me help please, please, please,” and my parents were really under the impression that it was- it was all gonna pass and that I was gonna- You know, it was a “phase” and whatever, and they loved me but they just- They were so in their own world that they couldn’t really see me. So- But I really tried. I mean, I took myself to therapy when I was in like high school. I just started going by myself.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. For me, my self-harm has often been about trying to pro- Like, one, to just like stop the feeling – stop, like, the swirling – and then also to be able to show to people. Like, to describe depression or how things feel is really difficult but to show someone a cut is much easier. I’m curious what kind of yours was for you?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I think that the cutting thing was such a cry for help. I mean, I was even aware of it when I was doing it. I was like “This will show them.” I needed to show them like a physical depiction of the pain that I was in.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Um, and even that- Like, I thought “Oh, like, and because it’s so dramatic it’ll really get them to notice.” But it was like- The language wasn’t around at that time when I was in high school. Like, we weren’t saying “transgender,” we were- I was out as a lesbian. I was, like, out at a young age. I was 15 when I came out as a lesbian. And uh, and that didn’t fix everything, you know? It allowed me to justify wearing boys clothes [Mike and Kyle chuckle] which was good, and cutting my hair short which is, like, you know. That was the reason why I said I was a lesbian, because I just wanted to… cut my hair.
KYLE GETZ
To cut your hair. That’s- [chuckles] That’s, like, creative thinking. That’s, like, creative problem solving. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
EZRA MICHEL
That’s a common thing, actually, for a lot of transmascs. A lot of their stories, it’s like “Oh, I just wanted a reason to cut my hair so I said I was a lesbian.” But, like, a lot of us, you know, after we start transitioning, realize that we are actually into men and we, you know, we like denied ourselves the ability to like really go after having crushes on men before we started feeling comfortable in our bodies and, you know, a lot of us starting hormones. And I- Like, people always say “Oh, testosterone makes people gay.” Like, have you ever heard that?
KYLE GETZ
I have not.
EZRA MICHEL
I think it- Honestly, it just gives us like the freedom to be able to see men as options, whereas before it was like I was too… like, I was too, like, in my jealousy and whatever. I couldn’t- I couldn’t let myself be attracted to men before, because I was like too uncomfortable in myself.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, I do want to- I do want to ask: testosterone and going on T, did that affect your libido? And, can you say- Like, I’ve heard things like psychological changes, or changes to libido, or changes to even, like, how your orgasms feel. Like, how much of that did you experience, or what was it like?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, well, I started out- Before I started T, I had a really big clit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh-huh.
EZRA MICHEL
I always did, and I thought I was really like weird because of it. When I was, like- When I was like showering with my friends or whatever, when I was like at sleepovers and, like, we’d all like get naked- But not, like- Not to like be like, you know, sexy or anything.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
It was just, like- It was like we would just- We’d be changing. I’d like notice the other people’s, like, pussies and be like “Wow, everything’s like really tucked in.” And I’d be like- Like- [Ezra and Kyle chuckle] It wasn’t like that for me. So, when I started T everything grew a lot, and what used to be like a source of shame ended up being like a source of… like, I have like big clit energy. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
So, like, a big reason why I think I talked about it all the time is because I do feel, like, quite confident about my- the stuff that I’ve got. So, not only did it grow but it also- Yeah, my libido, I got like way hornier. And I was 18 when I started so, like, I was already horny.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
But then… Yeah. I- Like, I remember like not even being able to get through the day without jerking off like at least five times.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, I was really going through it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
And it was, like, annoying actually. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like, I was like “Ugh, this again?” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] But back in the early days, like, I could cum in like 2 seconds. I was- It was like wild. And, I mean, it was like- It was awesome. And also, like, I remember like walking around, like my boxers would like chafe and, like, it would like be uncomfortable because it was like newly-sensitive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And it was like the first thing that I noticed when I started T.
KYLE GETZ
Interesting.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You’ve talked in some of your Instagram videos about your connection and relationship to masculinity, and especially you’ve mentioned feeling, like, more feminine masculinity. I’m curious, especially thinking about T but just in general, like what your relation to masculinity is.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I- Well, I think… I think the definition- The definitions of masculinity and femininity are so, like, subjective and stupid, [Kyle chuckles] and I also think it’s like fun to play with. So, at this point in my like evolution, my life, my whatever, maturity, I really only use them as a way to play and to speak lightheartedly about myself and my mannerisms, but nothing is concrete and nothing is like- I would never use those words to, like, beat myself up anymore, and I used to a lot. So I feel like, you know, I- The way that I’ve like navigated healing masculinity and stuff within myself, and, like, toxic traits, is just by acknowledging… you know, the pressures of, you know, identifying as a man and, like, what comes with that, and trying to trying to like get honest about, you know, what that’s like. Like, it’s wild to feel insecure when I’m like shaking someone’s hand and not knowing like how firm to shake it. And, like- Like, that’s so stupid. [Kyle chuckles] Like, that’s so silly. There’s so many like things that are just fake, that’s like silly little constructs. So I feel like the way that I’ve navigated it is just by being, like, honest about how silly it all feels and not taking things so seriously. Because, I mean, when I was first starting, like, to come out and stuff I would watch videos on like how to pass as a man.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
EZRA MICHEL
Like, “Change your walk, change the way you talk.” Like, [in a deeper voice] “Okay, so- So, guys, they wear snapbacks. So, buy yourself a snapback. Like, you gotta wear your hat backwards. Like, don’t wear shirts that are too tight because you’ll- your tits will show, so.” Like- It was like- I remember the video. It was like two guys – there were two trans guys – and they were like wearing like baggy clothes and they were just like [in a deeper voice] “Yeah, this is how you do it, so… fucking do it.” [Mike and Kyle laugh] And I’m like- And I remember I was like taking notes, like I was like “Okay! Because this is the way you have to do it!” So, after 9 years, I’m fuckin’ tired. Like, I don’t want to pretend. The reason why I came out was so that I could feel more comfortable in myself, not so that I could put myself in another box to like figure out how to- You know, I was trying to be a girl for so long and now, like, I’m trying to be a guy? Like, I don’t want to try, you know? Like, that’s the whole point.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s interesting, I would expect – and probably still do expect – that a lot of the toxic masculine traits come from the outside world, but you’re also describing some of these traits coming from within the trans community, of “Here are these norms, here these things to do.” I’m curious, do you still- Has that changed, or do you still get-? No? Okay. [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
No!
KYLE GETZ
Do you still get that within the trans community?
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, the guys that unfollowed me because I said the word “pussy”, that’s one blatant example of toxic masculinity, misogyny within our community. And it’s like they felt completely justified in their anger towards me. Like, they f- They were like- One of the comments was like [in an indignant tone] “I thought this was a safe space for trans men and it’s clearly not, because you said the word ‘pussy’ and that is a triggering word for me.” And I was like… I mean, when did I ever say this was a safe space, first of all? Like, I- [Kyle chuckles] I didn’t say that. Like, nowhere is safe for us. Are you kidding me? Like, not even- Not anywhere on the internet. Like, especially, you know? But nowhere is safe for any- Like, nowhere is 100% safe for anybody. We all have different triggers. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and it’s your pussy, don’t you get to call it what you want to? Right? Like- [chuckles]
EZRA MICHEL
Exactly! That’s- You know, and a lot of folks- I will say, like, I don’t want to just paint this picture like it was just that. It was mostly people being like “Thank you so much for using that word! Thank you.” Like, I get those DMs like daily from folks saying “Thank you so much for normalizing this word. ‘Pussyboy’ has helped me with…” you know “…being comfortable in my skin. It makes me feel sexy. My partner calls me a pussyboy during sex and now I feel hot.” Like, that is the overwhelming feedback that I get from folks, so I want that to be very clear.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Go buy PUSSYBOY merch, everybody.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [all chuckle]
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, it’s all hand screen printed by me at a trans-owned screen printing shop here in L.A., so…
KYLE GETZ
That’s amazing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Very cool.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
So, it’s interesting, you’re- It seems like you’re describing like a playfulness, and a levity, and a use of words in a fun way as like one of your ways that you kind of deal with some of these traits, or norms, or expectations. What- Where do you think you got that ability to be lighthearted and joke about some of these and play with some of these words?
EZRA MICHEL
You got some good questions. [Kyle chuckles] I’m really impressed. I’m really impressed.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, thanks!
EZRA MICHEL
I love that you said “levity”, that’s one of my favorite words. Uh, that’s like what I try to do, is bring levity to these topics that have felt so heavy and so, like, just, like, life or death for so long. I think that, you know, I think that it honestly- Like, my like trauma response that I, like, developed over the years has just been like to find the humor in situations, and I think that’s, you know, a common thing a lot of us do. And um, I noticed that like a lot of times with trans stuff, specifically transmasc stuff, like, everything just seems so serious, and so like solemn, and like poetic but like in a really heavy way. And it’s just like, so, like, augh. And I love sad shit. I’m like so pro-sad shit. [Mike chuckles] Like, I listen to sad music, I write sad songs, I love it. And I think that it’s important to show multiple sides of the story. And if I can bring some humor to something that has felt super hard to deal with, then I will, you know? And that has been, like, the way that I’ve healed the most, is by like being able to laugh and not take myself so seriously either. Like, I think celebrity culture, and like influencer culture, and social media, like there’s this, like, this really intense pressure to seem like- almost like apathetic and like chill. You know, like just like unfazed? Like “Oh, like, I didn’t know this was recording.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like “I post, like, a blurry photo because I don’t give a fuck.” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like… you know? And uh, I just think that’s honestly kind of lame. I like caring about stuff, and I think it’s cool to, you know, to show that and not take myself so seriously; not be so contrived.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Something else you’ve mentioned in one of your videos is your journey with, like, religion and spirituality. And it did kind of surprise me that, like, the fact that you described like kind of coming back to it. So I’m curious if you can talk a little bit about that journey.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. I was raised like really spiritual. My mom’s a minister, I went to church camp, but it was like- it wasn’t like typical Christian church camp. It was like, you know, “God is love and we are love, so we all have God within us and running in and through us and we’re made up of a body, mind, and spirit,” and, like, it was very, um… you know, woo-woo. [Kyle chuckles] Manifesting, law of attraction, like all of that stuff was just, like, embedded in my upbringing. And meditation and whatever. So, that stuff really like held a lot of weight for me, especially as a teenager going through, like, what I mentioned earlier and then coupled with having to go to church camp while I’m dealing with, like, all this other shit. It, like- It was like a- It just made everything really confusing, I think, for the most part. I wasn’t really able to, like, comprehend spirituality at the time. I was just sort of like going through the motions trying to make my mom happy. And then, when I got sober, I realized that all the tools that I had been brought up with would come in handy for me, because in 12-step they say, like, you need to find a higher power. And a lot of folks come in with spiritual trauma – religious trauma – that that actually stopped them from wanting to progress in 12-step, because they’re like “Oh, ‘God of my understanding’? Well, the god of my understanding was like a really punishing god that sucks.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And for me it was like “Oh, ‘God is love’? I could do that.” So it was actually a lot easier for me to, like, welcome that aspect of the program and then it worked for me and I, like, really got more comfortable with my spirituality. But then, I started dating somebody who was like a really strict atheist and we had a lot of conversations about spirituality, and atheism, and all this stuff. And, over time, I just- I, like, had this epiphany where I was just like “What if it all is just… stupid? And what if, like- What if there is nothing but what I can see in front of me?” And I, like, had this amazing awakening where I was just like “Fuck it, God is dead,” like “I’m just gonna focus on what I can see and touch, and that’s it,” and that was really important for me but then, over time, I started to soften again to the idea of, like, you know, at least, like, being more in the agnostic realm of just like “I don’t fuckin’ know!” Like, it’s kind of arrogant to think that I know. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
You know? So I think- I prefer humility over everything, so I’m like… What’s the most humble approach to spirituality? Okay, it’s probably that I just can say “I don’t know.” So might as well do what feels the best, you know?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
And uh, that’s kind of like what helps me move through the world is, like, okay, checking in with myself, like, what feels good. And that’s what I- That’s my spirituality, is just, like, tuning into myself.
KYLE GETZ
What else has been feeling good for you lately? What feels good for you these days?
EZRA MICHEL
I mean, I live in the most beautiful home right now, and it’s new. We- Me and my partner just moved into this place in late December., so it still feels- it feels new. But, like, we’re in Laurel Canyon, so I like have this view of the city. I’m like looking at it right now and uh, and it’s where Joni Mitchell lived when she was writing her music and I feel like- I just feel so connected, I feel inspired, I have a barbershop in the backyard that I can take clients and, you know, create this really amazing space. I love doing hair, I love- Like, I love the feeling of connecting with people and helping them feel like themselves. And, you know, it’s- I don’t know, I just- I think I’ve created a life where I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to do. And that’s just been based on, like, gravitating towards what feels good. And um, this feels good. I love talking to you guys! [Mike chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Aw! Thanks. It’s very nice to hear all of these, like, experiences and I really appreciate you sharing everything. What else do you got, Mike?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to ask about the whole “T4T” thing, which I also see on dating apps a lot, and what’s your dating experience been? Have you dated cis people, have you dated trans people, all of the above? Can you compare and contrast what those experiences are like?
EZRA MICHEL
[chuckles] Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’m a ho, I’ve been around. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I’m like a romance-ho, though. Like, I love- Like, I love falling in love. So I’ve fallen in love a lot in my life, and uh, I’ve dated cis people. The last cis person I dated was a hot mom I grew up, like, thinking was really hot and then, like, later on she like came to visit L.A. and was like “Do you wanna get dinner?” and I was like “Yeah! Like, I’m fuckin’ 26 now,” and then we, like, ended up dating. So that was exciting. And she was great. She was, like, really queer, and, like, affirming, and she liked effeminate guys so that felt really good because I was, like- I was with this, like, older woman who was, like, really into like effeminate guys. So it was fun. Like, there were certain things that were challenging because, like, you can never like know- You know, even if you’re tra- like, in a T4T relationship, you’re never going to know exactly each other’s experience. But I will say that, like, being with a trans person- I’m with a transfem person now, and we have been dating for 10 months now, and the experience of, like, just knowing, like… That- It’s- It’s just like one layer of comfortability that you just can’t get to with a cis person. It’s just, like, this- Like, even though the cis woman that I was dating was like incredible and exceptional in so many ways, there was still this, like, “You’re never gonna really know me,” kind of feeling. And with my current partner, it’s like I can relax more than I’ve ever been able to relax with a partner before. And I think there’s a lot of factors that go into that, I don’t think it’s just ‘cause they’re trans. I think they’re also my soulmate, but, you know, the trans thing really helps a lot. [Kyle chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure, yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And have y’all- Remind me, have y’all posted videos of giving each other, like, T and E? Have y’all posted- Have I-
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
Haven’t I seen videos like that? Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
Just one. Just one, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
One. One! Okay. Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was a cute one. We did that. Um, people were super sweet about the, you know, whatever. They commented nice things and then a lot of people were like “Wait, what are you doing? Are you giving each other your own hormones? Like, what?” [Mike and Kyle chuckle] Like, it was- Yeah. The internet is so funny. I just- I just came out with a new shirt that says “nuance is hot” [Mike chuckles] because I was just thinking about how, like, the internet just does not leave any room for nuance at all and, like, everyone just jumps to such black and white conclusions. And it’s just so- Like, if you scroll on comment sections it is, like- it’s just amazing to watch humanity interact with each other.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
EZRA MICHEL
It’s astounding.
MIKE JOHNSON
And depressing as fuck sometimes too. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Completely, completely. I mean, I follow like a lot of, like, Christian mom meme pages on Facebook- [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
EZRA MICHEL
-just to read the comments. It’s incredible. It’s, like- It’s better than anything. It’s better than any reality show.
KYLE GETZ
I have lately been addicted to, like, podcasts that have been going on for so long that the hosts don’t give a shit anymore and the show’s mediocre but people still listen, and I go onto Reddit and I read all the people commenting on all the new episodes, and that is my reality TV. That is my real housewives. [chuckles] That is my, like, fill of drama. And I’m, like, a little bit embarrassed but also still I’m so excited to do it every single week. I’m like “What’s-”
EZRA MICHEL
That’s so funny.
KYLE GETZ
I- Yeah, it’s a weird life.
EZRA MICHEL
I get that. I also, like, go on “mom hacks” on TikTok or Instagram – like, “momhacks” – and then read those comments because it’s like… like “Put your baby in a blowup kiddie pool in the living room and put toys and blankets and it’ll, like, it’ll be so fun.” And then like a few comments are like “Oh my god, this is a genius idea!” and then the next like 2000 comments are just like [in a harsh voice] “Your baby’s gonna die!!!” [all laugh] and It’s so funny. Ugh, I love it. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, Ezra Michel, before we go to a break I want to ask you real quick: we have a lot of listeners who are younger and just getting started and we know that a lot of them are trans, and do you have any advice to share with that audience who’s just getting started on this journey for themselves?
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, I think that my advice is to remember that the thing inside you that told you that you were queer, or trans, or whatever, is the thing that’s going to guide you through all of it. So remember to listen to that primarily, before any other any other external voice, or advice, or anything. Like, you have- You have the compass inside you. If I could do it – and I was like in my, you know, druggie haze – then you could do it too. [chuckles] Like, it’s always there and it’s always available to you if you just- If you get quiet and listen it’ll tell you what to do next, you know? So, you have the answers within you, child. [all chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
I love that.
KYLE GETZ
That’s wonderful, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like, I don’t know, Yoda or something. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
EZRA MICHEL
Probably. If I’ve ever- I mean, yeah, that’s the little one, right? [Mike laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I’m him, sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Alright, well- Then… you want to take a break?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, let’s take a break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, let’s take a break.
KYLE GETZ
Break.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
So, are we back?
KYLE GETZ
We’re back!
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
We are gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest but, first, Ezra Michel, where can people find out more about you, what you’re up to, where they can buy your Pussyboy shirts? Like, tell us all the things!
EZRA MICHEL
So, you can follow me on Instagram, “ezramichelmusic”, and then you can follow my PUSSYBOY APPAREL account, that’s “p_ssyboyapparel” with a underscore for the u because “pussy”… they’re not- I couldn’t- I couldn’t put “pussy” as my handle, unfortunately. And then “welcomehomehair” for my barber shop account. And uh- And that’s “ezramichelmusic” on TikTok as well. And um, yeah, I think that’s- And then pussyboyapparel.com is where you can buy my merch but it’s also linked to my Instagram, so you can go to my IG shop if that’s easier for you.
KYLE GETZ
Follow Ezra. Highly recommend. Great music, great content, great shit-
EZRA MICHEL
Aww.
KYLE GETZ
-so absolutely go follow Ezra.
MIKE JOHNSON
Awesome.
EZRA MICHEL
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
I appreciate that.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, our website is gayishpodcast.com.
KYLE GETZ
We are on all the socials, except TikTok, @gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply. By the way, we’ve gotten some great Gayests & Straightests in voicemail that we will play in future episodes. Please keep sending those in, we love them.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com.
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
Two reminders.
MIKE JOHNSON
Two reminders. Patreon happy hour, Wednesday May the 3rd at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Everyone at any level of Patreon can join us for that Zoom call and we’re posting the Zoom link in the Patreon app, so look there.
KYLE GETZ
And tickets for our six-city tour are available May 1st. Gayishpodcast.com/live to look for those tickets.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, please buy tickets and please come so we don’t cry.
KYLE GETZ
Please come.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Boy, have I said that line before.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Umm, okay, [chuckles] Gayest &- [laughs] Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Time for Gayest & Straightest. You want me to go first?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, go for it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great! Uh, so the straightest thing about me this week was: last night, when I- you and I rode home from that birthday party, I was driving the Jeep and another friend joined us who was climbing into the Jeep and goes “Oh, do you have a dog?”
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] I haven’t had a dog in- When was the “Dogs” episode?
KYLE GETZ
Oh, boy.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like 4 or 5 years now. I just am that disgusting that there’s still dog hair [laughs] in my Jeep years later.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We need to just take a quick vacuum to- Or- You know? Or not. Or live your life.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, I do-
KYLE GETZ
You do.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- Yeah. Uh, and then the gayest thing about me this week: I think that I’ve talked about the hot trainer, Dakota, at the gym before. He usually is wearing like really baggy clothes. Like, he’s still hot despite like wearing these like shapeless, formless clothing. Whew, Dakota was in a tank top yesterda- or, a couple of days ago, and I totally got called out for like not paying attention because I was-
KYLE GETZ
By Dakota!?
MIKE JOHNSON
Not by Dakota-
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Oh, oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-but by John, who was the trainer that I was assigned that day.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. [laughs]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, he’s like [clapping at each word] “Are you even paying attention?” [Kyle laughs] And I was like “Oh, no, I’m sorry,” and then I turned bright red because, like, I was clearly- I didn’t know that hot Dakota has, like… Everything that I thought about his body was absolutely true, and had a full, like, tattoo sleeve and, like…
KYLE GETZ
Ooo. Dakota.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was drooling. It was bad. [Kyle chuckles] Um, how about you, Kyle? Go!
KYLE GETZ
Uh, my gayest is: I was just at my appointment for my PrEP, every three months get STI and HIV testing, and when we were scheduling my next follow up one I was like “Can we do that for the week after Pride?” [Mike and Kyle laugh] Just- I don’t know, maybe I might want some STI and HIV screening the week after Pride. Just- And she was super chill. The PrEP nurse was like “Absolutely, let’s do it then.” The other thing is, I feel like I’m pretty medically competent on a lot of these topics but I did not know about- So, I learned about Doxy-PEP, which, I will now tell everyone about Doxy-PEP. Have you heard of- Do you know?
MIKE JOHNSON
Doxycycline?
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
So, it’s post-exposure for potential exposure to chlamydia or gonorrhea. There is a pill that you can have on hand and take if you are exposed to either those or worried that you are. It’s one pill that you can take afterwards. So I was like “Oh, I’m generally slutty. Like, that would be nice,” so I’m gonna talk to my doctor about maybe getting Doxy-PEP.
MIKE JOHNSON
Huh!
KYLE GETZ
So- But yeah, had no idea that that was even a thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
I was just gonna make the joke that at Pride they should hand out Z-Paks to everybody. Apparently, like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, they are! [Mike laughs] Well, not for free, because obviously, but you know. [chuckles] Yeah. Um, Ezra, what about you? What is your Gayest & Straightest?
EZRA MICHEL
Wait, did you do straightest? That was my straightest, is not knowing, uh, about the medication for chlamydia. [Mike and Kyle laugh]
EZRA MICHEL
Oh, okay, okay, okay. That’s pretty straight. [Kyle and Ezra chuckle] Uh, gayest was: me and my partner were gonna have sex and then I noticed that I had a lot of butt hair [Mike laughs] and I went to the shower and I shaved my butt hair. [Mike and Kyle chuckle] And they didn’t know that I did that but I, like, secretly ran to the shower and did that. [Kyle chuckles] Um, that’s pretty gay, I think.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yes.
EZRA MICHEL
Um, and then straightest: I started lifting.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Ooh.
EZRA MICHEL
If you can see, my muscles are really muscling right now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeaaah!
EZRA MICHEL
So, I’m like a generally pretty small guy and uh, I’m like starting to like learn how to actually eat food, and bulk, and lift things. So, that’s pretty str- I feel very straight whe- And now my entire For You page is just a bunch of bodybuilding people because it’s like… I think I, like- They’re hot.
MIKE JOHNSON
You are on the road to gym bro now.
EZRA MICHEL
I know! I know. [Mike chuckles] Like, I mean- Yeah. I’m excited. We’ll see. I want to be able to, like, lift my partner up like really easily, so that’s the goal.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, nice. We’ll follow-
EZRA MICHEL
That’s pretty straight!
KYLE GETZ
Yes!
EZRA MICHEL
That’s very straight.
KYLE GETZ
That’s very straight, perhaps the straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Follow Ezra’s TikTok and Instagram for more. [Mike and Kyle chuckle]
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah. Yeah, there’s plenty of that… slutty shit.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Plenty of that slutty shit. You know our audience already.
EZRA MICHEL
I do.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, Ezra Michel, thank you so, so, so much for being here today. What a wonderful conversation.
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been incredible. You guys are great.
KYLE GETZ
We really appreciate it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you.
KYLE GETZ
That is it! Oh, you’re looking at me because I’m supposed to say things now.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’re supposed to thank people that gives us money.
KYLE GETZ
Um, that’s- Yes. [Mike laughs] Um, uh, I’m ready and prepared. I would like to thank our Super Gap Bridgers: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel, Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Waddu, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, [Kyle gasps for air] DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. One of these days I will get it in one breath.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, that is it. This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you. Bye.
MIKE JOHNSON
See you next week. “Bi”, that’s a cute word, I hear. [all chuckle]
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
EZRA MICHEL
Yeah, your questions were, like, not invasive at all.
KYLE GETZ
Oh! We should have- [Mike and Kyle chuckle] We should have tried harder then, or something.
EZRA MICHEL
I know, I was like “Wow, this is, uh- This is good, it was easy.”
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]