He’s out of my gay league! Are gay rec and sports leagues necessary? And, if so, who should be able to join them? What’s the drama behind the Gay Olympics? And how about the tribunal at the Seattle Gay Softball World Series of 2008? LET’S! GO! SPORTS!
In this episode: News- 2:23 || Main Topic (Gay Leagues)- 16:35 || Gayest & Straightest- 1:11:36
On the weekly bonus Patreon segment, Mike and Kyle re-visit the gay origins of the high five with spunky new details. Get bonus audio, video, and other great benefits by joining our Patreon at www.patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
INTRO MUSIC [MIKE JOHNSON SINGING]
When you know that you are queer but your favorite drink is beer, that’s Gayish. You can bottom without stopping but you can’t stand going shopping, that’s Gayish. Oh, Gayish. You’re probably Gayish. Oh life’s just too short for narrow stereotypes. Oh, it’s Gayish. We’re all so Gayish. It’s Gayish with Mike and Kyle.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is Gayish.
KYLE GETZ
The podcast that’s taking every dick, everywhere, all at once.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Remember when Jamie Lee Curtis had dick fingers? [Kyle chuckles] It was hilarious.
KYLE GETZ
I still haven’t seen it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, fuck, man.
KYLE GETZ
So, no, I don’t remember it at all.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, she has dick fingers.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re not really dick fingers, but they are wieners.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. I- Why am I now more attracted to Jamie Lee Curtis? You tell me. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I mean, she’s always been delicious. I’m Mike Johnson…
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz.
MIKE JOHNSON
and we’re here to bridge the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today…
KYLE GETZ
Today…
MIKE JOHNSON
Hold on.
KYLE GETZ
Oh?
MIKE JOHNSON
We are live from Badger Lake, near Cheney, Washington.
KYLE GETZ
Live to tape. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Live to tape, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We are on our- Twice a year, we go hang out with our D&D group and-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-you know-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
-party down, and that’s where we are now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. My family has a lake house up here and, um, we came here this time for this. And, just- I guess I just- I always have anxiety about like, if people can tell that we’re not in our element.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, that things are weird. Yeah, I’m sitting on the edge of a bed, you’re on a…
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Ottoman.
KYLE GETZ
on a ottoman. This is not our typical setup. Derek is lost to the ether.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Poor guy.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, so- Yeah, I wonder if he can hear it in our voices.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. We miss you, Derek.
KYLE GETZ
We’ve got vacation voice. [Mike chuckles] Um, we’re gonna talk about gay leagues.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna talk about gay leagues.
KYLE GETZ
As in, like… sports leagues, rec leagues, that kind of thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
This was requested by Gap Bridger Joh Stoessel, so thank you for encouraging us to talk about sports.
MIKE JOHNSON
Joh!
KYLE GETZ and MIKE JOHNSON
…Stoessel. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Uhh, so- Yeah, thanks for encouraging us to talk about a sports thing that I don’t know that we would’ve had we not. So there’s some interesting things to go on, but first…
MIKE JOHNSON
But first, feedback and corrections.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, one is a- just sort of a correction? I don’t know. Apparently- So AE Coleman, who is a longtime listener and just a sweetheart-
KYLE GETZ
Dare I say, longtime friend.
MIKE JOHNSON
And longtime friend, yeah. Uh, he left us a voicemail about how to actually pronounce the Gaelic version of “whiskey”.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
[voicemail plays, AE COLEMAN speaking]
Hey guys. This is AE, from the Facebook group. Uh, your friendly neighborhood professor and nerd, here to help with your most recent episode on whiskey. So, I’m not a big whiskey drinker but I did study the Irish language back in the day, of course, and it’s gotten pretty rusty since… obviously, there’s not a whole lot of people to practice with in Oklahoma, but I do remember how to say “whiskey”. So it’s pronounced “EESH-ka BAA-ha”. “Uisce beatha”. And yes, Mike is right about it being “the water of life”.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was great. You can play as much [Kyle laughs] or as little of that as you want to, Kyle. [laughs] The magic of editing!
KYLE GETZ
Your acting was so good. “That was great. I enjoyed hearing that, because I just heard it. Yep. Yep.” [Mike laughs] Good- Good work.
MIKE JOHNSON
And a little bit of feedback/kind of an announcement. Uh, “Hey, Mike and Kyle, my name is Taylor Bradley. I’m a huge fan and avid listener of your podcast. I think it’s amazing what you two are doing to normalize the discussion of gay culture in today’s world, and I look forward to every new episode.”
KYLE GETZ
Aw, thanks.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Mike, I’m a fellow SigEp and refounding father of the Arizona Beta chapter at the University of Arizona. I’m extra proud whenever I hear you mention our fraternity and it is always a wonderful reminder that we are part of such a progressive institution of Greek life. My fiancé Mitchell and I are finally getting married in May after being engaged for four years and together for seven years.”
KYLE GETZ
Finally, am I right, Mitchell?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Man, we’ve been waiting for so long.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] “We both love your podcast and make it a goal to listen in whenever we are driving together. We would be honored to have your Gayish blessing as we finally celebrate our marriage in Las Vegas this coming May. Regardless, thank you for doing what you do and please know that it makes a difference.” Okay, here’s the thing, Taylor: I think I’m gonna have to meet Mitchell and then decide whether I bless this union or not.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We need- We need more info! We don’t toss- We don’t toss around our words lightly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. We don’t salad toss just anyone. [both chuckle] Um, no. Congratulations, you two, that’s fuckin’ fantastic.
KYLE GETZ
Are they #Blessed?
MIKE JOHNSON
#Blessed.
KYLE GETZ
So proud of you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. We’ll send you a-
KYLE GETZ
God, I sounded sarcastic. I didn’t mean to. [Mike laughs] That’s very exciting. Thank you for writing and listening, and I hope your marriage is wonderful, and amazing, and beautiful.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Did I sound less sarcastic there?
MIKE JOHNSON
Eh, I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Or still a tiny bit?
MIKE JOHNSON
Here, I’ll get us out of this: here’s the news.
KYLE GETZ
No!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
No you’re not!
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, shit.
KYLE GETZ
No, no, I’m staying in this moment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Son of a bitch. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Treefort is tomorrow, if you’re listening to this when it comes out on Thursday.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah. I know you’re all in Idaho, just anxiously awaiting us.
KYLE GETZ
Or you just have an itchin’ for a road trip. So yeah, if you are in the area, come see us in Boise at the Treefort Music Festival.
MIKE JOHNSON
If you’re actually itching, go see the- go get it checked out.
KYLE GETZ
Go see your doctor.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] But if it’s- If it’s just a- If it’s an existential itching, to see us, you can.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the best Nine Inch Nails album, Existential Itching.
MIKE JOHNSON
Nine inches… mmm. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
There are no Nine Inch Nails! [both laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
There are no Nine Inch Nails, Kyle! There are though, I’ve seen them. Dicks, I mean. Uhh, okay, here’s the news.
[News segment intro plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
Shut your mouth hole it’s time for your ear holes, news, news, news.
KYLE GETZ
I’d say it might be apparent, as we keep going, that we are not in our normal element. [both laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, I think so. Sometimes it’s good to mix it up, Kyle. Just, like, you know, get out of your comfort zone.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Like cookie dough, mix it up.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Stretch yourself. Ooo, that’s gross.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm. No, I love it.
MIKE JOHNSON
News the first: conservative author Bethany Mandel was on a show called- an online news show called “The Hill Rising” on Tuesday, promoting her new book “Stolen Youth”. Host, Briahna Joy Gray, in the course of the conversation, asked her to define “woke”. She could not do it.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
She said, quote, “So, I mean, ‘woke’ is sort of the idea that… um… This is gonna be one of those moments that goes viral.” She knew that she fucked up. [chuckles] She just absolutely could not say a single word about what it fuckin’ means. She tried again and came up with, quote, “’Woke’ is something that’s very hard to define, and we’ve spent an entire chapter defining it. It is sort of the understanding that we need to totally reimagine and redo society in order to create hierarchies of oppression.” “…Sorry, it’s hard to explain in a 15 second soundbite,” she finally said. [laughs] She said she- [laughs] She then [laughs] went silent, hoping for a lifeline from one of the onscreen journalists, and the host said “Please take your time.” [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Fuck yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s so great.
KYLE GETZ
I can help define it. I mean, my definition is “Hey, the privilege I hold-” “You calling me out on the privilege I hold makes me uncomfortable.” That’s woke.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think it’s gone even beyond that, Kyle. I think it’s just “Anything I don’t like.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, that’s true.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s a catch-all dog whistle for, just- They think you know it when you see it, and the reason they think you know it when you see it is because they-
KYLE GETZ
They see it everywhere!
MIKE JOHNSON
They see it everywhere and it’s just another way to other.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
[sighs] Anyway, “woke” is – especially in Florida, but throughout the entire country – being used to whip-up a frothy manure… [laughs] a Santorum [Kyle chuckles] of hatred among the right, but particularly towards LGBTQ people, trans people, and drag queens for some reason, who- I did not have that on bingo- my bingo card for who would be attacked next, but here we are.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Herem we are. And uh, yeah, it just- It’s toxic now, right? And The Advocate says that, quote, “Republicans have made the term toxic, using it as a pejorative toward liberals and those whose worldview embraces people from many backgrounds.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like that’s a bad thing. USA Today did a poll and they found that 56% of Americans believe that being woke is a positive thing.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Even when using that politically charged word, of “woke”, It’s even higher if you ask things like “Should we care about people who look different than us?” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Is, uh- Is racism bad?”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. “Should we teach people about the history of our country? Yes or no.” Like- Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, just, I fuckin’ hate them, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
Me too.
MIKE JOHNSON
I fuckin’ hate them.
KYLE GETZ
And particularly the politicians. Like, there’s just a small group of people that are really pushing this. It’s not even necessarily popular among Republicans. Like, all- It’s not like this is what the majority wants. There’s a small group that are like really targeting, and those are the people I hate the most.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Ron DeSantis, suck my dick.
KYLE GETZ
He can- Yeah, he can DeSantis my ass. Wait-
MIKE JOHNSON
He doesn’t deserve my dick.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, I just said something that I think might be positive.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. We’ll workshop that for a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, news the second: so, former Vice President Mike Pence made a misogynistic and homophobic joke toward transportation secretary Pete Buttigieg at a political dinner and, perhaps predictably, instead of apologizing, has doubled down on his comments. The annual dinner, which is hosted by the Gridiron Club, brings together Washington journalists and politicians, and traditionally political speakers do- like, there is like a roasty sort of nature to it, of, like, good-natured jabs and jokes. This was on the 11th of March, and Pence said- And you have to remember that Pete Buttigieg, the Transportation Secretary, he took two months of paternity leave when his twins – he and his husband Chasten adopted twins – and the right lost their goddamn minds. Like “Why is he off the job?” And- Because they were premature, and had health issues, and were in the hospital, and-
KYLE GETZ
Weren’t they in the NICU, or, like, hospital or whatever?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Mike Pence’s “joke” – big ol’ quotes around the word “joke” there – quote, “I mean, Pete Buttigieg is the only person in human history to have a child and all the rest of us got postpartum depression.” Okay, hot take: I kind of think that’s funny.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I don’t think I get it. He’s the only one in history to have a baby?
MIKE JOHNSON
No, he’s the only one in history- It’s- Postpartum depression, you have a baby and you get sad.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
He said- But the difference here is, he had a baby and I got sad.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhhhh. Okay, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
“He’s the only person in human history to have a child and all the rest of us got postpartum depression.”
KYLE GETZ
Gotcha.
MIKE JOHNSON
Now, I understand there’s a certain amount of, like, “Who tells the joke?” and “Are they punching down, or are they punching up?” and- “Or at least sideways.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And there’s some problems there. You know, when the cracker-white former vice president with severe hatred towards LGBT people on record, in the state of Indiana that he used to be governor of… [sighs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. It’s- Yeah, the context of this, especially in a time when LGBT people are being so, like, attacked so heavily and like stripped of rights and stuff, like, it’s- You know, especially trans people that- It’s just, like… It’s not when you want to joke about that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, the White House requested an apology, to which Pence said “Well-” This is a quote: “Well, the Gridiron Dinner is a roast and I had a lot of jokes directed to me. I directed a lot of jokes to Republicans and Democrats. The only thing I can figure: Pete Buttigieg not only can’t do his job, but he can’t take a joke.”
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Chasten Buttigieg, who’s just fucking awesome, tweeted, quote, “If your grandchild was born prematurely and placed on a ventilator at two months old, their tiny fingers wrapped around yours as the monitors beep in the background, where would you be?” There is definitely a, uh- I mean, conservatives are, like, not down with gay people having children at all, but then there’s certainly a double standard when it comes to caring for those children.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it’s- I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
They still expect these, like, long, like, gone gender roles to stay in place, where the man goes back to work and earns money and the woman stays home. Like, they still have that expectation in mind. So for a man to take paternity leave, on it on its own, they’re probably like [in a mocking voice] “Well, that’s not a man’s role.” Like, they have this like real shitty view of the gender roles, and then you throw in the gay thing and that’s a whole nother layer that they just can’t get over.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. The gender gap in income has been explained to me by conservative people before to be a function of the fact that “Well, she’s the one having babies. Of course she’s behind in her career.”
KYLE GETZ
Mm.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s fucking disgusting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fuck you, Mike Pence, and the fly that you rode in on.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] And the fly that rode in on you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Uh, news the last: President Joe Biden welcomed Ireland’s gay prime minister, known as the… Taoiseach… [TN: saying it like “TEE-shuh”]
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I think- I hope that’s his title.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ireland’s gay prime minister.
KYLE GETZ
Ireland’s gay prime minister.
MIKE JOHNSON
…Um, known as “the Taoiseach”, to the White House on St. Patrick’s Day on Friday.
KYLE GETZ
Are we gonna get an AE…? Are we gonna get an AE voicemail?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, I already got one. I already got one. Somebody DM’d me about, like, “You said ‘taoiseach’ wrong,” so I’m leaning in.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
I think I did say it differently, though. I think I said “suh” instead of “shuh”. Anyway, I dunno.
KYLE GETZ
Do like I do with Patreon and say it five different ways, and one of them will catch?
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, known as “the Taoiseach”, [TN: saying it “TAO-ee-seech”] because that’s how it’s spelled.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Are you happy, fuckers?
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Uh, so, uh- We were supposed to get together with Ireland during the pandemic and it was postponed, and- Anyway, so it was just a feel good session about like “Yeah, a lot of Irish people live here,” and Ireland being like “Yeah, U.S., we’re all white. We get it.” [Kyle laughs] But it was also the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, which, that’s the whole conflict about whether Northern Ireland would leave the UK and rejoin Ireland in unification, and the Protestants and the Catholics and a bunch of shit blew up. It was real sad. Anyway, 25 years of peace in in Northern Ireland. Anyway- But this is where- This is where it gets maybe racist. I’m not sure.
KYLE GETZ
If it’s “maybe racist” it’s racist for sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, this one says- The AP says that it’s been a tradition since 1952, it’s not just Joe Biden being vaguely racist, but he gave Taoiseach Leo Varadkar a bowl of shamrocks. [laughing] Apparently that’s like a traditional- “Here’s a bowl of shamrocks”? Like a salad? I don’t understand.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah. And ranch dressing.
MIKE JOHNSON
And what the fuck is he supposed to do with that? Like, “Thank you for these shamrocks.”
KYLE GETZ
“Thank you. This will be rotting in my office until we-” It’s like when I buy vegetables, and it’s like, at some point you have to be like “No, this is going in the trash. I- I don’t need this anymore.”
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m gonna go feed my leprechauns, and-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] They sprinkle it about the country, and U.S.- and freedom fighters grow from the ground.
MIKE JOHNSON
He also gave him some water that had been dyed green… from the South Lawn fountain.
KYLE GETZ
Hm.
MIKE JOHNSON
I- Just- I- I don’t- I don’t- I don’t- I don’t get it. Anyway, they had breakfast and hung out, and it’s St. Patrick’s Day, y’all. Or, it was St. Patrick’s Day. And apparently, we just hit the Irish visitor with like all of the Irish stereotypes [chuckles] that we could muster, in one visit.
KYLE GETZ
Right, yeah. Yeah. Perfect.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, that’s it. That’s the news.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the news. Well, speaking of… muster…ed, I want to give these people the muster that they- I don’t know. Um, thank you to our following Patreon members: John Clemens-
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s pretty good.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is that Mark Twain’s great-great-grandson?
KYLE GETZ
[quietly] I don’t know what that means.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Mark Twain’s name was Samuel Clemens, so…
KYLE GETZ
Ohh, because it was his pen name? Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’m avoiding the douche shots, being down here. Which, people don’t know what that means.
KYLE GETZ
Nope.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
There was someone who- but their email is their name and I’m not gonna read your email, but hopefully “CPaul” is enough for you to know who you are, and DNVRCub. Denver cub?
MIKE JOHNSON
Denver cub!
KYLE GETZ
Are you a cub in Denver, or does DNVR stand for something else that I don’t know? Whom knows? Uh, thank you to all our Patreon members. If you want- If any of this so far has made you eager to hear more of us, then go to patreon.com/gayishpodcast.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Do it.
KYLE GETZ
Do you want to talk about gay leagues?
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about gay leagues. Johhhh Stoessel.
KYLE GETZ
Joh Stoessel suggested this. If you are a Gap Bridger, after the first three months you get to meet with us and we’ll decide an episode topic together. And I think gay leagues- One of the thing we want to talk about is, you know, how have they changed over time, and are they necessary, and who belongs in them. I think these are all things we want to explore as we talk about this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Absolutely. And, are they necessary? Are they good or bad?
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why aren’t neither of- Why aren’t either of us in one?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s talk about that first. How do you feel about gay sports, Kyle?
KYLE GETZ
I mean, there’re some homophobic jokes in there already, like [chuckles] “Those are two conflicting ideas. That’s an oxymoron.” Uh, but I joined- I actually joined a volleyball league briefly.
MIKE JOHNSON
You did not.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Trevor and I did that for a little bit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow. Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Back after I broke up with one of my exes-
MIKE JOHNSON
Was it Jay Z?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [Mike chuckles] I was like- Was that one? Anyway, I don’t care. I was like “I don’t have friends.” Like, “How do I make frien- How do I meet people?” And so, like, Tre-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, that’s when you got real needy.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. Yes. [Mike laughs] Absolutely. But was it then, or-? I think it might have been a different time, actually. But anyway-
MIKE JOHNSON
We were friends. We were hanging out before then.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, we were, but I was like- I also, like, spent so much time with him. It was like my first real, big relationship and I kind of got lost in it and forgot that I need to have a separate life. And so, when we broke up, I was like “What do I do?” So I- It was not a gay thing that I joined. I joined one for… normal people… [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Oh.
KYLE GETZ
and did that for a little bit. I thought I’d meet people that way. Didn’t, really. But I was like just trying to put myself out- Uh, we met and like hung out with like a couple of dudes a couple times, but I don’t know. It’s one of those things, like, that I would want to do but my anxiety goes up so high, but that’s kind of the point: is a way to like have things to do, meet people, you know, and a gay league would be a better avenue to try to do that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What about you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, I mean, I definitely have- I’ve never done it before, first. I’ll just start with that. And- But I have considered it several times, and in a, like, “Maybe that’s a way to meet people”-kind of way. I have lots of friends that are in gay sports, especially gay dodgeball.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Because there’s all kinds of leagues in Seattle. We’re gonna talk about that more, you know, as we get into the episode, but it just seems like a really great way to meet people. They’re all friends doing a thing, and they see each other with regularity, and there’s camaraderie, and it’s- it’s not just getting fucked up at the bar, but like-
KYLE GETZ
But that seems to be part of it.
MIKE JOHNSON
But then that’s also part of it! That’s where I was going with this, is that, like, I just- I’m- I would- I would be even more of an alcoholic if I was a member of any of those gay sports leagues, because they all practice and then they go to the bar, and then they have their game and then they go to the bar. And you don’t have to. There’s obviously, like- They’re adults and can decide, but I’m a little afraid of what it would do to my liver to-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, so many of them that I looked at- Like, I looked at a bunch of just – you know, whether it was local or national – like organizations, and the sponsors are always some kind of like nightclub or, you know, gay venue. Some kind of alcohol… probably some kind of lube.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you know, all of those tend to be like the sponsors, so. I also- One of my fears is that… gays are already kind of judgy and cliquey, but that it would be extra cliquey, that they have a team of people that they always-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You know, it’s the same people and that any new person would be really difficult to, like, break in and become friends with them. That’s- I don’t- You know, I’ve never done it, so that’s all just my own fears and anxieties about entering into a new, you know, group. But that- I just worry about them being extra cliquey.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, in like gay softball anyway, in Seattle- Don’t @ me, everybody. I don’t really know how it works. But there’s like- There’s different levels of like… goodness of teams, and you have to try out and you get a letter grade-
KYLE GETZ
Oh my god.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and that’s like how good you are and which kind of team you’re allowed to join.
KYLE GETZ
Can I just assign myself an F and move on with it? Like, do I-
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, and I forget if F is better than E or worse than E, but like, I know that there’s like D teams and E teams, and I think F teams is what we’re doing right now. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not playing softball. And there’s a big long history of gay softball in Seattle to talk about. But I’m gonna talk to you about the history of gay sports leagues. So, as near as I can tell, Kyle, we have Stonewall to thank, because it’s really the late 60s and early 70s that we start seeing stories of organized sports for homosexuals. And the very, very earliest seems to be softball. Softball and baseball teams really got rolling first. And it grows out of these, um- Actually, let me back up. All of this is about gay men. Lesbians have their whole, like, other history that I don’t know that I can really speak to that well, or- nor should I, maybe. But lesbians sort of co-opted straight softball, so it was never- it never became lesbian softball. It’s just, softball became lesbian.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So-
KYLE GETZ
“Co-opted” sounds, like, a little judgy.
MIKE JOHNSON
No, no, no.
KYLE GETZ
Is it, like, they were always part of the- that- like, that the softball was always a little bit lesbian?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Like, [A] League of Their Own has a- you know, is based on the actual real women’s ball leagues in World War II, and there’s a whole saga about a couple of players that, you know, were in a relationship. And there’s more or less, I think, a tendency for straight women to be okay with gay women than straight men are with gay men. So anyway, just- Talking about just gay men. Oh, they- The ladies- The first softball league specifically to ladies was The Haveners, in Toronto. They had the Ladies Softball League in the 1960s, so they got started even a little bit earlier. And then there’s Big Apple Softball, in New York, that’s been around since 1977. Anyway, the Greater Los Angeles Softball Association says that gay softball started in the late 60s and 70s. There were gay teams that started forming in various cities around the country and they were trying to play in the normal leagues that had already been set up by straight dudes in those cities and then they encountered, understandably, difficulties in playing with these straight teams.
KYLE GETZ
‘Cause sports are- I mean, we didn’t mention: sports are all kind of homophobic already. Like, that- We have so many people that are out but, like, in sports it’s kind of this desert wasteland of people not coming out. So there’s- That makes sense to me, that there was- that, in trying to play sports, that you would try to play sports on the regular leagues that already exist and then you’re like “Fuck. Maybe not. Maybe I won’t do this.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. So, in 1977, a San Francisco business owner invited New York City to send a team to San Francisco. It was a big “Let’s do a gay bar, cross-promotional, bicoastal thing.” And uh, so the Badlands team, which was the community softball league of San Francisco’s gay men, and they played against a team that was made up of various New York gay teams like an all-star team. The New York Badlands, the Eagle’s, the Nest, [TN: The Eagle’s Nest] and the Nickel were all bars that chose players and put together a like team and sent them out, and that was the Big Apple League, in New York. So, San Francisco won and they-
KYLE GETZ
[unenthusiastically] Go, San Francisco…
MIKE JOHNSON
And then decided to call that the first Gay Softball World Series, and that has stuck. So, as far as like national gay competitive league-based sports are concerned, that seems to be like the granddaddy of them all in 1977. Other- Other sports got on the train pretty quickly though, like the International Gay Rugby Association started in the early 80s.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo, hot.
MIKE JOHNSON
The International Gay Bowling Organization also got started fairly early. Oh, yeah. Yeah. International Gay Rugby started forming the 1980s but didn’t actually officially start until 1995. The International Gay Bowling Organization started in 1980 and they claim to be the largest LGBTQIA+ sports association anywhere. Apparently, faggots love bowling, Kyle.
KYLE GETZ
That- Why is it, because doesn’t take that much athleticism?
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] I guess so.
KYLE GETZ
Joh told us that, like, sometimes if you didn’t want to out yourself, someone would ask- “The International Gay-” Is that what it- “International Gay Bowling Organization”, is that “IGBO”?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So, someone would say “I Go Bowling Often,”-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
-instead of outing themselves, which I think is both very funny and very depressing, that you might choose to do that instead of outing yourself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I agree. I love it. I love me a secret code.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Umm… let’s see… And they’ve had an annual tournament since 1981.
KYLE GETZ
Do you like bowling?
MIKE JOHNSON
I like to bowl. My ex-wife and I bowled in a league for a while.
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. And… maybe that’s where my fears of, like, becoming an alcoholic are, because we would go on like Tuesday or Wednesday night, or whatever it was, out to the West Seattle Bowl and I would just get fucked up playing bowling.
KYLE GETZ
Did your game get better or worse as you drank?
MIKE JOHNSON
The curve is: better. Like, drinks one, two, and three get better and better and better, and then it’s diminishing returns after that.
KYLE GETZ
Just like podcasting.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] Just like podcasting. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. My first couple drinks I’m like loose, I’m ready, I’m excited, I have ideas, and then it goes downhill. Um, I hate bowling.
MIKE JOHNSON
You hate it.
KYLE GETZ
I think it is the most uncomfortable thing to do with a group of people, because after you bowl you turn around and no matter what you did, whether you missed and fucked up real bad or got a strike, when you turn around what do you do? My so- This is like the social anxiety. The discomfort of “What do I do with my face?”- Do I walk by and talk to pe- Do I- Do we just all pretend like that didn’t happen? That is the most uncomfortable walk, barring the walk home I did from my neighbor’s.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, next time, just decide, after every ball, you’re going to turn around, grab your dick, and flip ‘em off with the other hand. [Kyle laughs] Just every time.
KYLE GETZ
And then say “Game’s on, bitches!” [both laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Even if you guttered, still.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah. That’d be fucking hilarious, If I gutterballed it, turned around, flipped everyone off, and said “Fuck you, I’m winning!” and then sat down and pretended like nothing- like chugged beer and then sat down like nothing happened.
MIKE JOHNSON
I’m playing golf rules, you bitches. [both chuckle[
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah. I’m on a whole nother level, and that level is a very low score.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God. Yeah. So, moving on…
KYLE GETZ
Moving on. Sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Moving forward. There is a sort of- I have mixed feelings about this, Kyle, and I’m interested in your feedback. The gay softball culture in San Francisco went through a whole period, in the early to mid-70s, where they were playing against the San Francisco Police Department in an annual game.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo. That’s interesting.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, it got big enough that, in 1975, in the slow-pitch softball exhibition between the Police All-stars and the Pendulum Pirates, more than 5000 people turned out to Margaret Hayward Field which is just a few blocks from City Hall. This was the third annual charity game between the San Francisco Police Department and the championship team from the gay community. And it was a, uh- Apparently, even though there were already huge problems with- between the police and gay people – this is just on the heels of Stonewall, which was 1969 – it was sort of a… I don’t know “Let’s build a bridge. Let’s look past our differences,” or whatever. But- And apparent- Dianne Feinstein, now Senator Feinstein, apparently, was at this game. But what really made that fall apart – it was like building and building and building to be this huge-ass thing – was when Harvey Milk got shot. Gay people rioted, and then the police broke it off and they said “We can’t play baseball with rioters,” and they put a stop to what had been this sort of fellowship and goodwill olive branch thing that the gay community was doing.
KYLE GETZ
That feels like when your shitty boyfriend breaks up with you and you’re like “No! No, I break up with you- No! You’re not allowed to break up with me, because I break up with you!” Like, that feels like the same kind of thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, the cops- In 1979 the cops said, quote, there’s “no way I’d play against those guys after what happened.” That was the consensus among cops who were asked if they’d appear this year in what had become an annual event. So, [chuckles] we started playing with firefighters instead. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Oh, good call, fellas! We made the right choice. I do wonder, like, in playing- I understand that kind of wanting to normal- Like, by doing a recreational thing like that together, then you are like “Hey, we’re regular people that just-” We- They’ll see us hanging out just being regular dudes too, and, like, that could help. But I also would… I don’t know anything about this, obviously. Gayish. But I would imagine that benefiting gay white men mostly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sure.
KYLE GETZ
Like I would- Like, that’s- I would imagine that being the bridge you could build, because black people and people of color still have a particularly hard time with cops. So, like, I would think it’d be the gay white men that would be like “No, no, no, I’m normal. Like, treat me better.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and- I totally agree. And there’s also an interesting story that I only kind of looked into – [Kyle chuckles] uh, Gayish – of, there was a bowling league, a gay bowling league, that was trying to get started in Cincinnati, Ohio in the late 70s and they got kicked out of a bunch of bowling alleys. They didn’t ask permission, they just rolled in there and had their gay-ass bowling tournaments. And so they finally found a bowling alley that would accept a queer league, and in 19- It was 1980, and it was Mergards, which was a black-owned bowling alley in Walnut Hills. So, like, people of color were- they understand differences and they understand, you know, the struggle and-
KYLE GETZ
Like getting kicked out for your identity, and…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So, at least at that time, in this place, there was a, like, “Hey, let’s help each other out,”-kind of thing happening.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And we forget that all the time, that, like, people of color like were such a huge part of so many important parts of queer history, and it’s been whitewashed.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Or then, as white people in that group start earning more rights, then they’re like “Yeah, but do we care about you anymore?” [Mike laughs] Like, they start getting rights and then kind of run away instead of helping everyone else.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Um… okay, so, the Gay Olympics. We have to talk about the Gay Olympics.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did- I know a little bit. I did read a little bit about this, and it’s- Boy, you know it’s gay because there’s some drama.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, there’s some- There’s definitely some drama. So LGBT-focused leagues and events- We got enough different sports going on, organized enough, and enough cities participating from afar, that we started putting together the Gay Olympics. So, it started in San Francisco in 1982. It was an Olympic decathlete named Tom Waddell, and another person named Brenda Young, and other people, but they wanted to make the gay version of the Olympics, right? They had a flame that was lit at the opening ceremony. Um-
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] The flamer was just a dude, standing and like wiggling around. “I’m a flame!”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God. And that it would happen every four years, just like the Olympics would. Yeah, there’s a bunch of drama there but the part that I really want to touch on is just that then the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, sued them and said “You cannot call yourself the Olympics. We are the Olympics. No.” [Kyle chuckles] And that lawsuit was filed less than three weeks before the first gay Olympics, in 1982.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
And so volunteers had to stop selling buttons and t-shirts so that they could remove “Olympics”, or “Olympic”, or “Olympiad” from their medals, souvenirs, t-shirts, signs, programs. It was estimated to cost the organization between 15 and $30,000.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I’m just imagining, like, the news getting, like, the one gay that was in charge of the buttons, and someone telling them and him being like “[gasps] Reprint the buttons? I can’t reprint the buttons. I already got all the buttons! The buttons are already done! It’s a done deal! We can’t redo the buttons!” [Mike laughs] Like, I just picture button guy freaking the fuck out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
Just having a gay hissy fit.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hell hath no fury like an inconvenienced twink, right?
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Not my joke, but I don’t remember where it came from. Uh… let’s see… So the IOC sued under the U.S. Amateur Sports Act of 1978, which gave the USOC, the United States Olympic Committee, exclusive rights to the word “Olympic” in the United States. And, in our defense, we tried to say that, you know, “You didn’t sue the Special Olympics, you didn’t sue the California Police Olympics, you are just choosing us because it’s gay.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But that went all the way up to the Supreme Court and-
KYLE GETZ
Damn.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, the Supreme Court ruled for the USOC in San Francisco Arts & Athletics, Incorporated v. the United States Olympic Committee. So now it’s just the “Gay Games”, which… it’s the Gay Olympics.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, it’s every four years, there’s a fuck ton of different events that people can participate in. The original set was basketball, billiards, bowling, boxing, cycling, golf, the marathon, physique… which, you know that was fun…
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh.
MIKE JOHNSON
…powerlifting, soccer, softball, swimming- swimming, and diving, tennis, track and field, volleyball, and wrestling. And uh, just like the real Olympics, events have been added and removed since then.
KYLE GETZ
And I read- I actually did look on the Olympic site, and they do claim that some of their policies have then been adopted by other sports organizations, including the Olympics for things like the trans-inclusion policy or other things. So they do kind of claim that some of the things they are doing are leading the way for the Olympics to follow.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s pretty cool.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! One of the big, like, giant middle finger “Fuck you”s happened in 1994 when the Gay Games, in New York City, overtook the real Olympics in size.
KYLE GETZ
Hohohoh.
MIKE JOHNSON
There were 10,864 athletes at that Gay Games, and the real Olympics only had 9,000 and some change and- or, 10,000 and some change, at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics. I think-
KYLE GETZ
Did you read- There was- Okay, there was other drama too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, yea- Well, the schism between them and the Canadian one, and like the “Are they gonna merge back together or not?” And now there’s Outsports, and Gay Games- You know more. Say some things.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah. No, no. Yeah. Like, Montréal [pronounced violently French] was like supposed to host it and then they got in a fight with the Gay Games over like certain like policies, or guarantees of attendance, or something like that. And so they were like “Okay, we’re not doing it in Montréal this year,” and they were like “We are.” [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And then that started the schism between these groups that then both continued on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And that- Yeah, that’s why. So, you can- You basically…
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, I forgot to talk about NAGAAA. [TN: saying it “nuh-GAY”]
KYLE GETZ
What’s NAGAAA?
MIKE JOHNSON
The North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance. NAGAAA. [both chuckle] If you wanted to join like gay dodgeball, or gay… you know… bowling, gay whatever, that’s a national organization that has really done a lot of organizing work in that department. And- But, NAGAAA, softball is sort of their bread and butter.
KYLE GETZ
Uh, should I tell you about some gayta?.
MIKE JOHNSON
Let’s hit some gayta, Kyle. Save me from this historical morass.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Wow. Um-
MIKE JOHNSON
More ass!
KYLE GETZ
More ass! So, there was one study that I found that was about people’s view, both in sports and out of sports, of gay people. So the study is called the “Recreational Sport [Participant] Attitudes toward Lesbians and Gay Men: An Exploratory Study of Participation, Religion, Socioeconomic Status, and Sexual Identity”.
MIKE JOHNSON
That was just a bunch of nouns. Like-
KYLE GETZ
This guy had like a title word count he needed to hit, and he got there. Austin R. Anderson published in the Recreational Sports Journal in 2017. So, part of this is studying all of these various aspects of people: whether they play sports, their religion, all of those nouns that I mentioned, and see how they feel about gay men and lesbians. Again, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, it’s just “Lesbian atheists win,” right? Is that-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] They- What do they win?
MIKE JOHNSON
Everything.
KYLE GETZ
What do they win this time?
MIKE JOHNSON
Whatever they put their minds to.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Lesbian atheist can do anything they want, um- to my body. [Mike chuckles] There is- I, like, didn’t know this, and it’s one of those annoying things that like- In the academic world, you need something to help measure how people feel about gay people, and lesbians, and other- Like, again, like, it’s so laser focused. All studies tend to be focused on those two groups-
MIKE JOHNSON
Not just a ruler, then, but like some other way of measuring.
KYLE GETZ
Some other way of measuring, other than a ruler. There is something called the “Attitudes Towards Lesbian and Gay Men Scale” or “Attitudes Towards Lesbians,” ATL, “Attitudes Towards Gay Men” ATG. Like, this is a thing that was created and studies use and or adopt to fit their study, and it’s this list of questions that you rank on a scale, maybe one to five, one to seven, of how strongly you believe. And so, it’s one of those things that I hate that exists, and also you need that.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I tried to find it. I looked up, like, some of the questions, you know… rate on the scale of how much you believe that “Lesbians just can’t fit into our society.” You have to rate that belief.
MIKE JOHNSON
On a scale of what to what?
KYLE GETZ
Uh, it depends on the person doing the thing but let’s say on a scale of one to seven, how much do you believe that? Like, isn’t that- Another one that I wrote down: “The idea of male homosexual marriages seems ridiculous to me.” Like… we have- You have to do- Just- This- The entire concept of this is just… ugh, it feels so icky, to me, that it exists.
MIKE JOHNSON
Cringy, yeah?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Um, it’s one of those things that’s like- We don’t- Straight pride- We don’t need straight pride, because no one’s ever done a research study to see if people are “accepting of straights”. Like, that doesn’t- There is no “Attitudes Towards Straight People” surv- thing that needs to exist so we can study if people think that lesbians are okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
You know? Like, you don’t need that, because that’s not a belief.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Reverse racism isn’t real, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, people can have racist ideas about white people, but, like, capital R Racism is a white people thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yes. There is no systemic work against- working against white people, or straight people. Um, anyway, so that’s how they measured how people feel about it. Here are the results. This was a university students, like… like maybe 450 or something university students, that they looked at.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
Recreational sports participants as compared to non-recreational sports participants, what would you think the difference is in their attitudes towards gay and lesbian people?
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so… recreational sports participants, I assume, are straight gym bros that are afraid of and hate gay people. That’s-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my assumption too. And, like I said, like we do see in sports, sports tend to be a more homophobic area, as viewed by the fact that less and less- Like, less people come out there-
MIKE JOHNSON
Despite the pants.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Despite- All odds against it. Despite the locker room, the outfits, the cute coordinated outfits, like all of that. They did not find any statistical difference in the attitudes of these two groups-
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh.
KYLE GETZ
-which was surprising to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughs] Everyone sucks equally.
KYLE GETZ
Everyone fuckin’ hates us, but on the same level. No, I didn’t- It didn’t say the level, but, like, that- I was surprised by that, because I had the same expectation. I wonder if there’s some kind of- It did find there was a small number of gay people that participated in these recreational sports leagues. I wonder if part of it is it’s being canceled out by… when you play on a league with someone else, now I get to know them and that normalizes their identity a little bit. I wonder if that helped- helps even some of this out.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, maybe. We know the importance of exposure, like, visibility.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Showing your dick off. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
I- That- Literally, in my mind, all I could picture was someone flashing their dick, the way you were saying that. Um, so, there are a small number of gay- openly gay men and lesbians participating in recreational sports leagues, and one of the findings – one of the like, implications – that the study discussed- So this is- you know, starts to get into their opinion or interpretation of these findings. It said “Given this participation, the level of homophobia that may exist within the environment itself should be of concern to recreational managers.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
Which, I didn’t- That’s something that sounds nice at first, like “Oh, given our participation, we should worry about the homophobia.” You should worry about it no matter what. You should not have to have gay people in participation to be concerned that homop- about homophobic attitudes.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay.
KYLE GETZ
And in fact, if you don’t see anyone that’s out in a group, you should be maybe even more worried about homophobic attitudes because someone there’s gay. Like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Look around. Someone’s gay. So like, they are probably just not coming out because, like, they can’t because everyone’s being so homophobic. So I didn’t really like that finding.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Republicans aren’t Nazis, but the Nazis sure think they are.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. [both laugh] Exactly. Another: household income was not a factor in how people viewed gays, which, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
That surprises me too.
KYLE GETZ
What would you think?
MIKE JOHNSON
That money is a function of education, and therefore exposure to other ideas and acceptance of people who are different than you.
KYLE GETZ
Which, other studies I think have shown that, so that was a different kind of thing- result. The last thing is that this research suggests – and I’ll just read the quote, because I don’t want to get in trouble – the research study suggests, quote, “Higher levels of heterosexism when recreational sports participants identify with particular religious affiliations.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Which, surprise, people that are religious: lil more homophobic, like, because their religion teaches them to be. Not surprising to me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep. Absolutely.
KYLE GETZ
That’s the gayta!
MIKE JOHNSON
Interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah!
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, what was the most surprising to you?
KYLE GETZ
Um… man, that the findings were very readable and digestible. [both laugh]
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, okay.
KYLE GETZ
It wasn’t a super long study, so I could read a decent amount of it. That surprised me. Sometimes you, like- This 30 page PDF, like… “Oh, boy, am I doin’ this?” but this one was like a- It was like a 15 with like a couple pages of bibliography, so that didn’t count. It was it was doable.
MIKE JOHNSON
Wow.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, just like me: very doable.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Scientists, do better.
KYLE GETZ
No. No, no, no, no. Keep it at that. Like, keep it a tight 4 pages or something. That would be great for me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh. Sorry, that’s- That’s what I’m saying. Scientists, do this more.
KYLE GETZ
Yes, yes. Scientists, keep it tight.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckling] Keep it tight, keep it right.
KYLE GETZ
Keep it tight, keep it right… with your studies. All night. [chuckles] What’s up, Mike?
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh, God. Okay, so-
KYLE GETZ
How’s this going?
MIKE JOHNSON
I think it’s fine.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, great.
MIKE JOHNSON
We can blame Joh.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, Joh.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] Okay. I’m gonna talk to you about the Seattle Gay Softball World Series, of 2008, and the drama.
KYLE GETZ
Okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, so, this is all coming from The Stranger, which is our local alternative newspaper in Seattle.
KYLE GETZ
Mhm.
MIKE JOHNSON
From an April of 2011 article. And uh, so, basically the Gay Softball World Series was in Seattle and nearly 200 gay softball teams from all across the United States and Canada came to town.
KYLE GETZ
200 teams?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That’s a fuck ton.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
This shit is popular. [chuckles] We are, like, not part of this but it is huge.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. So, for the Seattle World Series, the San Francisco Gay Softball Association, which is one of the oldest clubs in the country, sent a team called D2, and they’d been together for a while but the best that they’ve ever done was placed fourth. And so, the coach, LaRon Charles, decided that in order to win they would need to push themselves, quote, “harder than we ever had.” So then, the night before the championship game, there were rumors that started swirling around and the accusation was: D2 has too many straight guys.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
So people were pissed. Like, this is gay softball and the rumors started picking up that D2 had whatever “too many” meant – I mean, I would argue 1 – but like- [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
-whatever “too many” meant, they had too many. So, I talked about NAGAAA earlier, the North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance, and it put on the Gay Softball World Series and started it, but they had a- early on, they said that straight people weren’t allowed on the field at all, period.
KYLE GETZ
Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
And they had backed off on that in 1993. NAGAAA Commissioner Roy Melani said, quote, “Now that we have advocates in the straight community, and family members, whether it be sons or parents who want to play, we need to change the rule.” So they changed the rule so that two straight players per team were allowed during the Gay Softball World Series. So-
KYLE GETZ
And I’m assuming we’re using “straight” as like a proxy for like “non-LGBT”, which is usually how- like, non-cis-het… non- or, cis het people.
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, this is one of those things of, like, this is a little over 10 years ago that this article was written. I don’t know-
KYLE GETZ
Oh.
MIKE JOHNSON
-that we were paying attention to that kind of thing at that time. Like, straight and gay seemed more, like, less blurry than it does now?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You know? There is some more on that, here in just a little bit.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, okay.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, [laughs] first- Part of what I want to come out of this conversation is this idea of whether gay leagues are necessary, important, useful, etc. And this guy, Mulaney- Melani, the coach of the Portland team, said currently- so, “currently” would be 2010, quote, “The amount of slurs and the amount of abuse that we take—in Portland, Oregon!—is amazing.” “Last year, we arrive to play against another team,” a straight team, “and the umpire says ‘Oh, here come the cross dressers.’” On the field, opposing players called out “Faggot!”, “You throw like a girl!” and, he said with a smile, “Meanwhile, we beat the shit out of these guys.”
KYLE GETZ
Damn! Ultimate flex.
MIKE JOHNSON
He went on, “There was one time, a few years ago, where we split a double header with a straight team—they were ready to take baseball bats and come to blows because we were gay. Mind you, my team was not out there hugging and kissing everybody. That was not what we were doing. We were playing softball. And we were beating them. And that was a problem for them.”
KYLE GETZ
Mmm. It’s like, if you’re upset because your masculinity is threatened because you’re losing to a gay person, you got an easy insult that you can lob out there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, absolutely. And, like, men are kind of terrible that way, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, there’s a lot of toxic masculinity that says, to lose, to not crush your opponents, is an affront to your masculinity.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Even more so if it’s somebody who sucks dick.
KYLE GETZ
Yep, exactly.
MIKE JOHNSON
Right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. They think they are better than anyone who takes a dick. Like, that’s- They should beat anyone who takes dick. Like, that’s their view.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, back to the World Series in- the Seattle World Series, in 2008. Because of these accusations, they brought in three players from that team and subjected them to questioning before a tribunal.
KYLE GETZ
[gasps] To figure out how gay they were?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes. They-
KYLE GETZ
What!?
MIKE JOHNSON
They alleged that they were asked about their sexuality in an attempt to determine whether they should be disqualified or count towards the maximum number of straight people allowed under the rules.
KYLE GETZ
They didn’t just trust, like “State your identity and we will trust that”? They had to question them?
MIKE JOHNSON
Correct.
KYLE GETZ
Wow. I wonder- Oh my god, that would be like a hotbed of like stereotypes that we could use for this show. We could do episodes on all of their questions, I bet. Like, because what things do you ask them about to like figure out if they’re really gay, or how gay they are, if they pass the gay test?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Well, the tribunal apparently was held in a small conference room inside a complex at the park. One by one, their teammates were brought before a panel composed of leaders in the National Gay Softball Association. Accounts differ what happened, but apparently more than 25 people were crowded into the small hearing room and it felt like a circus, and then according to one of the plaintiffs, “People inside the hearing room were texting private information to people outside while … questioning was taking place.”
KYLE GETZ
Whoa.
MIKE JOHNSON
“When I came out of the hearing room, people I didn’t even know were making comments about my marriage and other things we said in the hearing.” He is married to a woman. But then – this is super interesting to me – one of the people that was accused identifies as bisexual.
KYLE GETZ
Right- That’s what I was thinking. Like, you can be married to a woman and still be LGBT… Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
“Someone on the Protest Committee read me NAGAAA’s definition of ‘heterosexual’ [and] I was asked whether it defined me, and I said yes. Then someone … read me [the] definition of ‘homosexual,’ and I was asked whether that definition defined me [and] I said yes to that question, too.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Bisexuals. Like, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, because it was about conduct, right? It was about, like, “Do you- Do you fuck ladies? Do you fuck dudes?” and like, that’s as far as they got, and so like bisexual people would have to answer “Yes,” to both questions. What do you do with that?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
There were also a bunch of accusations of racism. Like, all three of these men that got part of this circus were men of color, and he- one of them said that- one of the people in the tribunal said, quote, “This is the Gay World Series, not the Bisexual World Series.” [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Whoa! God.
MIKE JOHNSON
They took multiple votes, and on the final- quote, “on the final vote, I was voted to be ‘not gay.'” [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
What the fuck?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I guess if you’re bisexual- Yeah, I mean, maybe. Yeah, he- But that sucks. This- Wow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
This is not a bright spot in our history. [chuckles]
MIKE JOHNSON
Another player just refused to answer any of the questions.
KYLE GETZ
Good.
MIKE JOHNSON
“I didn’t want them getting into my personal business.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
He was also ruled “not gay”. [both chuckle] And then another player, who was not a plaintiff in the lawsuit, was questioned by the tribunal and refused to answer. He was ruled “gay” and he was white.
KYLE GETZ
Ohhh. [Mike laughs] Fuck.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. All but one of the Protest Committee members were white. And, anyway, so- Drama, drama, drama. There’s more drama here, but it went all the way up to US District Court, and the question that they’re asking is whether the Gay Softball World Series counts as a public accommodation. You cannot discriminate, especially in the state of Washington, against people on the basis of race or sexual orientation in a public accommodation, like selling cake. [Kyle laughs] And it’s just fascinating to me, this idea of like, we need to have a straight witch hunt-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
-over baseball- or, softball.
KYLE GETZ
And the idea that, like, saying like “No, this is gay, not the bisexual-” Like, gay is also- has been used as an umbrella term to mean all LGBT people, in the past, as well. So like, come on now.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep, yep. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s super interesting.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, yeah. Apparently, we can be pretty terrible to each other.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I mean, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
That being said, I kind of get it. Like, that’s a horrible implementation of what I think I support.
KYLE GETZ
Hm. Which is…?
MIKE JOHNSON
Straight guys have other shit to do. There should be, like- There should- Like, there’s got to be a better way to do it. Like maybe just ask people “Hey, how do you identify?” and a cap on cis het dudes, I think, is okay. Like, I think it’s still needed. And, like, I don’t know. I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Um, can I tell you just things I read about a couple, like, current leagues?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Okay. Because I think that- That was one of the things I was really interested in, is, what did they say about who is part of this? So the Sin City Classic – which we had a friend actually participate in – a multi-day multi-sport festival that calls itself, quote, “largest annual LGBTQ+ sporting event in the world.” Which, that seems weird given the Gay Games are a thing. I don’t know, but that’s what they say. Um, they work with 20 leagues, they’re a nonprofit organization.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I’ve known several people that have been.
KYLE GETZ
Really?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, that one actually- I didn’t write down what they say about- Maybe they didn’t say anything about like who participates, so I don’t know why- That just was a big one. Um, there’s Stonewall Sports which is a national – mainly on the east coast, but – nonprofit that is a collection of 8 different sports and they put on their site “We welcome everyone”.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mkay.
KYLE GETZ
The implement- The… implied-
MIKE JOHNSON
“Implication”?
KYLE GETZ
Impli- Thank you. Jesus fucking Christ.
MIKE JOHNSON
Great.
KYLE GETZ
The implication being: including straight people. There is the North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance-
MIKE JOHNSON
NAGAAA!
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] -for softball. They say everyone “regardless of age, sexual orientation or preference”. Although, on their website, they do say that this organization is, quote, “comprised of men and women” like, and then they keep talking. So like, maybe they just haven’t updated their language to be more nonbinary-inclusive? That struck me, in particular. But it seems like a decent number of… like, OutLoud Sports, they said “We welcome-” They call themselves “the nation’s original Queer+ recreational sports [league],” and they said they welcome “LGBTQIA+ and allied athletes”. Like, a lot of people- The- Pride Sports USA said they include allies. Like, you know, I don’t- There are so many of these that obviously- I only looked at these handful of – it seemed like – big national organizations, but so many of them went out of their way to include allies in this.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
That seems to be what I’ve seen in all the places that I looked.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I-
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re going- We’re going through- Speaking of the fraternity- God, I didn’t expect that to come up twice in the same episode. [Kyle laughs] Right now, the fraternity Sigma Phi Epsilon, we’re one of the largest fraternities in the country, and there are well over 1000 of us who are gay who belong to this secret Facebook group, and right now some of us are trying to, like, formally organize as a entity within the fraternity. We’re gonna, like, take the Chicago Society, which is the name of the- or, “Bromos” is the other name for the group, and get a formal structure going, and elect officers, and raise money, and do some cool shit. And one of the questions we’re wrestling with right now is whether to involve allies, and in what way to involve allies.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
‘Cause some of it is, like, if we’re just going to invite allies then how’s that different than the fraternity?
KYLE GETZ
Right.
MIKE JOHNSON
[chuckles] In general.
KYLE GETZ
But it is- It is different, and you know it. You know? Like, it is different having an LGBT plus ally space, versus just a space for, like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Kay. So then, the other side of that coin though, is then what about the safety to just be gay with gay people, right? Like, when we get- When we get the gay fraternity brothers around, and then a straight one, even who’s an ally, shows up, the conversation changes.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
The tone changes. People’s attitudes… we butch up and we talk about dicks and butts less and like, you know, we go out of our way to like not touch each other and, you know-
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Is there still utility? Is there still a justifiable utility in saying “No, fucking straight people, stay over there. We’re gonna be over here. We can do ally stuff later. Thank you for your support, but fucking go away.”
KYLE GETZ
I- Okay, the one thing that I- makes me compelled to say alli- like, “It’s important to include allies,” is: you may not be out, and calling yourself “an ally” may be a way to be involved in a safe way and explore it.
MIKE JOHNSON
This has come up too. Absolutely. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
I think that’s super useful. If, in order to join, you have to out yourself- Or maybe- Like, you may not- You may not even be out to yourself, and you don’t know why you’re compelled to join this group, but…
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Or maybe you’re just a super passionate ally. Or, like- There’s also- I mean- I think, also compelling. That one, I think, is the most compelling, but like they mentioned- you mentioned in your story, like, there’s parents, there’s, like, what if you’re married to someone who’s bisexual but you’re straight? You know? I think there are a lot of people that- like your brother. What if your brothers want to join because like gay issues are really important to them because they’re your brothers?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, there are a lot of people for which I think gay issues are really important to them in spite of not being one. So-
MIKE JOHNSON
But, back to my brothers, if they’re down to go to Diesel and look at dicks on the TV screens, that’s great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But we’re not going to tone down the gayness because you’re around.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But there’s some people that can’t. They don’t have the confidence to do that.
KYLE GETZ
And maybe this helps build- Maybe this would be a good place to build that confidence. Like, is it their- Is it the straight people’s fault that you all are changing your tone and attitude? I mean, it’s understandable that you would, given like, you know, are just living or in a straight world and having to do that, but like, I don’t know. Should they be responsible for the way you change because of them?
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s like straight people in gay bars, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s a different version of the same conversation.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
You’ve justified queer spaces before as a necessary thing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah, but I think another part of it then is like, what do you have to- do people have to write their identity- Like, at a gay bar, it’s one of the things like-
MIKE JOHNSON
“I to see your straight card.”
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Show me your dick. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Unless you’re at a gay bar, like, unless you’re causing a ruckus-
MIKE JOHNSON
Show me your underwear. If they’re tighty-whities, you have to go. [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. You’re out. [chuckles] Um… yeah. If you’re not wearing a jockstrap, you’re not invited. Um, unless you’re causing a ruckus, like, you’re- You don’t walk up to people and ask their identity. Assume they belong. Like, regardless of what they look like, or who they are. Like, “Hey, you look kind of straight,” well it’s like… that doesn’t-
MIKE JOHNSON
You can’t just ask people why their white, Kyle. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, like- I don’t know. Yeah. So I think that it should be, um, okay for allies to join. And all of that, like, I think is less compelling than just the idea of closeted people or questioning people exist, and it’s helpful for them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Another question. So one of the- When I was looking at organizations I did look specifically at Seattle, just because this is where I live, and I don’t know, fuck off. There were multiple leagues, like, for multiple sports. There were two bowling leagues, there were two dodgeball leagues, there were two kickball leagues, there were two volleyball leagues. So like, we have enough that we have multiple options of, like- It has gotten- Like, I was- I mean, I was so surprised at how big this thing is.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, wow, we have enough that we have multiple bowling leagues that we can- Um, there were some organizations that were nonprofit, and some weren’t, so that might be something to like look at to see- Like, the idea of corporations, both kind of a corporatized group running this, and on OutLoud Sports, which again, says it’s the-
MIKE JOHNSON
Out loud!
KYLE GETZ
Out loud! …says they’re the nation’s original queer rec sports league. They- On their homepage is this video of like a bunch of the gays that are in those sports league sitting around at McDonald’s.
MIKE JOHNSON
Mm.
KYLE GETZ
And you play it and it is an ad for McDonald’s, with them.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ohh. Yeah, I don’t like that.
KYLE GETZ
And then, part of me is like “Get that money.” You know? Like, we should get like- We do this shit. We sell ads, you know? We do this. So like- And that’s also like-
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayishpodcast@gmail.com, if you want use to schlep your shit for you. [both laugh]
KYLE GETZ
Give us money and we’ll promote anything. We have low standards on men and corporate sponsors.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and, like… but on the homepage? That was a lot, and, I don’t know. So like, corporation- What should the involvement of corporations be in these organizations, if any?
MIKE JOHNSON
What should the role be in straight sports, right? Like, every fuckin’- NASCAR has Budweiser on the side of it, like, just to sell straight people more beer because they like vroom vroom. Like, that’s-
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] [doing a dumb voice] “Straight like beer.” Um, I-
MIKE JOHNSON
[doing a dumb voice] “Cargo crash. Me drink beer.” [laughs]
KYLE GETZ
“…Beer. Life good” I- Yeah, I think the arguments that I’ve been hearing around corporations in Pride is partially like everyone says, like, “Well, we need the money to fund this,” and also, other people, the counterpoint is like “You can walk down the street for free.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Right, yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, you can go bowling- Not for free, but like you can go bowling. You can play on a- Like, you can play softball. Like, you- What mone- Like, do you need money?
MIKE JOHNSON
Mhm. Mhm.
KYLE GETZ
Um, yeah. I don’t know. But you’re right, like, straight things have corporate sponsors, so like…
MIKE JOHNSON
It pays for things, like the uniforms, and like traveling to fuckin’ Las Vegas for the Sin City Classic, and for, like, I don’t know.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Maybe the bar tab? [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
And like, that’s another thing, like consideration, I think, is if they’re- Like, I’m guessing a lot of these places like have dues, or yeah, like there’s fees that are associated with it. And so, I hope that, given our rates- Like, you know, we tend to – and, in particular, trans people tend to – have less secure employment like as a group, or may be more likely to be homeless, may be more likely to be lower-income because of the hardships we face. Like, I hope there’s some kind of like scholarship policy available or something. So like, if someone has- is low income, or out of work, or homeless, or whatever can still join these leagues and be a part of it. Like, I would hope that there would be particular attention paid to the most vulnerable of the groups.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah. That would be nice. I doubt it’s true. [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Pride Sports USA, I just wrote they have a bad website. [both chuckle] But they’re sponsored by clubs, bars. They have a drag race competition, which, the fact that they had a bad website and a drag race competition, I was like “This is run by gays.” I actually think that this is like a actual community organization. That was my guess. I don’t know. But they have the Gay Kickball World Series, is what they do, and 25,000+ players, so.
MIKE JOHNSON
There’s an amateur drag competition for Seattle Gay Softball that I’ve been to before, where each team has one of them- is a drag queen for a night and they see how much money that can raise.
KYLE GETZ
Oh, yeah, it would raise money for charities and stuff. That that’s really cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
That’s fuckin’ great.
KYLE GETZ
That’s how- I feel like that kind of thing is how you know it is actually local. Like, giving to nonprofits and like having some things that fit in with the community, like doing drag race, or do- or drag competitions or things like that. I feel like that’s genuine to our like… history, and who we are, and what matters to local leagues.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Okay, so like- I don’t think we answered any of these questions, and I don’t think I know-
MIKE JOHNSON
Gayish! [both chuckle]
KYLE GETZ
Are gay leagues necessary?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Okay, cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
100%.
KYLE GETZ
Why is that?
MIKE JOHNSON
Because, I think- Okay, first of all, there’s the one school of thought that we’ve become mainstream enough and until we mix together we won’t be one big happy family. I understand that. That is a utopian future that is based on a reality that we do not currently live in.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
We are not there yet. Sorry.
KYLE GETZ
Yep. Agreed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Um, and- Maybe that’s- Maybe that’s-
KYLE GETZ
Period.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I only needed one!
KYLE GETZ
And a stain. [both chuckle] Yeah. I mean- I do think the idea that “Gay is mainstream enough that we don’t need these,” is also like… we have a spectrum of acceptability depending on your identity, and gay is amongst the most accepted these days. Still isn’t. Still have laws being passed against teaching people about gay things, about gay books and stuff, so like let’s not pretend it’s completely fine, but, you know, then you have the other end of the spectrum. We always mention the news: trans, nonbinary, queer, especially youth are particularly under attack right now. So like, that’s not something you could necessarily be comfortable- Especially in sports, like knowing that- having a safe place to go to do that is very valuable. Like, so you have to think of the whole breadth of our community, not just gay white men, and if they are comfortable doing it.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. I also think, when they are no longer necessary, they will go away on their own.
KYLE GETZ
Mmm.
MIKE JOHNSON
Why are you trying to rush that, right? Like-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, they’re- They exists, so they’re necessary?
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
It’s proof in and of itself.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yes.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, being a gay person- Growing up in a straight society being a gay person is an exercise and feeling like you don’t belong.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
And these things are successful because you feel like you belong.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
If you also feel like you belong somewhere else, great. Go join a straight league. A non-queer league. Good for you. That’s great.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But enough gay people want to be gay together doing this thing, belonging to this thing. This thing exists.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. I also think that like sports are just such a weird thing. I’ve mentioned they’re particularly homophobic, especially at the national- like, the professional national ones is where we don’t have really that many out people. But sports in general are homophobic, and, growing up, there’s this weird conflict of “I might want to play sports,” and “It’s homophobic,” and people assume that like the locker room- everyone assumes that gays love locker rooms, but the locker room – we’ve talked about this – terrifying as a kid.
MIKE JOHNSON
It’s terrifying.
KYLE GETZ
And I didn’t want to be in the locker room. I wanted a separate- I didn’t want to take a shower anywhere near anyone.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Like, they were terrifying. So like, so much of sports- Am I gonna- Like, “Am I worse than the other dudes? Am I gonna prove how ‘non-masculine’ I am by doing this sport?” Like… [saying quietly] I was very bad at sports. [Mike chuckles] Um, and it’s just this… such a weird, unique, terrifying experience that to get to play with other LGBT people, and feel included in this thing that you have never been included in, is like kind of a magical thing.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep.
KYLE GETZ
I wanted to read- Actually, I wrote down- I sometimes- Especially things- Like, you- We don’t know anything. We came into this not knowing much. So I wanted to write down someone who actually like is involved in rec leagues. I found an Outsports article-
MIKE JOHNSON
Boy, we should try to do this every episode, Kyle: find somebody who [chuckling] does know what they’re talking about.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. I try to bring quotes of like, you know, explain why a person who is, you know, that identity that thing- So apparently, ESPN, there’s an out… I don’t know, sports talker? Uh, commentator? A sports onlooker? That like- I don’t know.
MIKE JOHNSON
A sportsologist.
KYLE GETZ
A sports- A famed sportsologist, Izzy Gutierrez, who works for ESPN, he’s on Around the Horn – no idea what the fuck that is – said, quote, “If you have trouble finding a competitive sports base that you feel safe in…” abridging it… “If you go to your local LGBTQ sports league, and find a team of whatever sport you want to compete in. I highly encourage it.” So there was like a shout out on a big ESPN show about LGBTQ leagues, and an endorsement of it there. Alex Reimer’s the writer of this article, said that in 2016 they were adrift without a gay community and didn’t have much of a social identity, so here’s the kind of what they said about rec leagues, “Seven years later, I know exactly who I am as a gay man, and the great friends I’ve met on the field are a big reason why. I didn’t only find a space where I felt comfortable playing football — a game that terrified me as a kid. I found a family.”
MIKE JOHNSON
Aww.
KYLE GETZ
So there’s like a sense of- It can be very much a, like, if you don’t know how to plug into your gay community, your local gay community- We get this question all the time, especially on Momsplaining, like “I moved to a new city, how do I meet people? What do I do?”
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
If you don’t have a plug into the LGBT community, this is a good way, one of the available avenues, that you can kind of get an automatic hookup to groups, and events, and stuff going on.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yep.
KYLE GETZ
So I think that’s super useful, like it’s not just about sports for sport’s sake. Like, the value- Like, you can’t- You’re not gonna get your LGBT family from a straight sports league, no matter how many gays are- Like, this is an avenue to gay life.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
KYLE GETZ
So yeah. I will agree that I think gay leagues are necessary and valuable, and I think you’re right, the fact that they exist prove that they are needed.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Did we do it?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. We did- We did a bunch- Joh, let us know.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, Joh.
KYLE GETZ
This was your- This was your doing, so let us know if we covered what you want to do. God, there’s so much drama involved in the history. I’m into that. Um, yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Should we take a break and play some baseball or something?
KYLE GETZ
Sports break!
MIKE JOHNSON
Sports break! Oh, God, no. Halftime!
KYLE GETZ
Halftime!
MIKE JOHNSON
Two Minute Warning. [chuckles]
KYLE GETZ
Ugh. Sports reference.
[Break music plays, sung by MIKE JOHNSON]
This is the part where Mike and Kyle take a break!
KYLE GETZ
So are we back?
MIKE JOHNSON
No.
KYLE GETZ
Oh. [both chuckle]
MIKE JOHNSON
But I see where you’re at. [Kyle chuckles] Are we back?
KYLE GETZ
No.
MIKE JOHNSON
Fine!
KYLE GETZ
Fine! We’ll sit here quietly a little longer…. We’re back.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re back! We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
We’re gonna do our Gayest & Straightest, but first, Treefort. Treefort.
KYLE GETZ
Tomorrow.
MIKE JOHNSON
Tomorrow, in Boise, Idaho. Start driving now, you might make it. [both laugh] It’s uh, Friday.
KYLE GETZ
And listen to all of our back catalogue on the road. It’s gonna be a fun gay Gayish weekend for you.
MIKE JOHNSON
[laughing] ‘Cause it’s gonna take you-
KYLE GETZ
So fucking long.
MIKE JOHNSON
-a long time to get there.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, it is Friday, March the 24th at 6pm Mountain Time. You do not need a festival pass to attend. It is free and open to the public.
KYLE GETZ
And you can see the gay podcast that goes on right before us too, because there are multiple gay podcasts.
MIKE JOHNSON
Sloppy Seconds with Meatball & Big Dipper.
KYLE GETZ
Yep.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ummm, okay, I’ll do it now. Local gay bar review!
KYLE GETZ
Oooh!
MIKE JOHNSON
I want to talk to you about Tantric, which is a bar in Singapore.
KYLE GETZ
Oh!
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah. Okay, so, I did not know that I had the courage to go to a gay bar in Singapore. They just overturned their sodomy laws this year. Despite that fact, there’s been a more or less permitted underground. Not that underground, but there’s a gay part of town that has bars, but like the mental gymnastics of like “It’s okay to be gay, just don’t fuck. Here’s some booze.” [Kyle laughs] Like, “We’re okay with-” Like, it’s just weird to me that they would like tolerate a gay drinking establishment, knowing that- They have to know.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
They’re getting fucked up and doing each other in the butt. [Kyle laughs] Like, right?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
MIKE JOHNSON
Anyway, um, went to Tantric, Singapore, met a fraternity brother there-
KYLE GETZ
Oh, cool.
MIKE JOHNSON
-and he and Marcy and I went and hung out at Tantric. And it was a weeknight, it was fairly early. The thing is: I bet that place is super-duper fun, it just wasn’t that night. We were like the only people in there.
KYLE GETZ
Oh no.
MIKE JOHNSON
And it was adorable, but I just- I can’t give it more than 3 dildos, because that was my experience.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
So, um, I’m gonna say 3 dildos, but I have higher hopes that if I were there like on a Friday night, when there were other people there, it would probably be really fun.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
It was kind of a classy, like, classic place. Like, they had these like overstuffed chairs and stuff like that.
KYLE GETZ
Ooo.
MIKE JOHNSON
MIKE JOHNSON
It was really nice. I would hang out and drink there, except Singapore’s fuckin’ expensive, man. [Kyle chuckles] But yeah, that’s Tantric. 3 Dildos.
KYLE GETZ
Tantric! Tantric. Uh… our contacts.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah. Our website is gayishpodcast.com
KYLE GETZ
We are on- Our communities are mostly on the Facebook group, the Discord, and Spaces, so join us there. You can find all our contact stuff at gayishpodcast.com/contact.
MIKE JOHNSON
Our hotline, you can send us text messages or leave us voicemails, is 5855-Gayish. That’s 585-542-9474. Standard rates apply.
KYLE GETZ
Leave us a voicemail, if you want to. Um, our-
MIKE JOHNSON
Especially if it’s for mom! Momsplaining! We need some questions.
KYLE GETZ
Oh yeah, send in some questions. Um, our email is gayishpodcast@gmail.com
MIKE JOHNSON
And our physical mailing address, to which our birthday presents should be sent, is Post Office Box 19882 Seattle, Washington 98109.
KYLE GETZ
My birthday is right around our podcast birthday too.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah, but don’t try to double dip, Kyle. That’s like-
KYLE GETZ
I’m trying. Herem we are.
MIKE JOHNSON
Like, those people- Those people whose birthdays are on Christmas, like, I understand your life is hard but you’re getting one thing.
KYLE GETZ
Mm…
MIKE JOHNSON
Uh, Gayest & Straightest?
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, Gayest & Straightest.
MIKE JOHNSON
Okay, I’m gonna look and see. While you’re- While I’m not listening to you say yours, I’m gonna find listeners.
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] Okay, perfect. Um, my gayest is: in preparing for our travel this weekend, I went to the store and one of the things I bought were little pink frosted cookies.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
And there’s some things like- I just think little pink cookies are something that straight dudes would question, whether- They are fucking delicious, everyone’s been eating them, but like, I still think straight people would, even in today’s modern era of acceptance, like I still think they would be like “Am I gonna get- Am I gonna be in the checkout with little pink cookies?” I don’t know. [Mike chuckles] So that was my gayest. And a wonderful thing about being gay is I get to buy little pink cookies and not worry about it. My straightest is: this weekend, anytime we do this I feel very schlubby. I just- Like, other people actually like get dressed and wear cute clothes like a human adult might do, and I’m just in sweatpants the whole time.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah! Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
‘Cause I want to be.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I get to.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
And I am.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
What about you?
MIKE JOHNSON
Well, the straightest thing about me this week is exactly what you just said: I have not showered or changed my clothes since Thursday, and it is Saturday now, everybody.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] I am going to shower after this. That is a goal.
MIKE JOHNSON
I even- Like, I’ve now, two nights in a row, gotten fucked up and slept in my clothes, so I’ve like not even taken them off at all.
KYLE GETZ
This is just your weekend uniform.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep. They probably would stand up by themselves now.
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Oh, ugh.
MIKE JOHNSON
And then the gayest thing about me this week was getting hammered last night and putting a safety pin through my piercing.
KYLE GETZ
Yeah, it-
MIKE JOHNSON
It worked. It went through.
KYLE GETZ
You- How long had it been since you pierced-
MIKE JOHNSON
Like 10 years.
KYLE GETZ
Wow!
MIKE JOHNSON
Easy. Like, since I even tried. Like, I stopped wearing an earring when I started working for the fraternity. So I was 22. I’m 44 now. Like, I haven’t regularly worn an earring for 20 years, more than 20 years, and I have a couple of times over the years, like, done a “Huh. I would if something would still go through there.”
KYLE GETZ
Yeah.
MIKE JOHNSON
But I haven’t done that in a long ass time.
KYLE GETZ
My straightest is yelling at you to challenge you to- Like- But then my gayest is I yelled “Put it in. Stick it through there! Put it in!”
MIKE JOHNSON
And then you said “Find a lighter.” You’re like- Because I was worried about the germs, you were like “Use a lighter,” and then-
KYLE GETZ
Just use lighter and burn off the germs!
MIKE JOHNSON
And then Keagan was like “Just soak it in Fireball.” I was like “Oh my god, no.”
KYLE GETZ
[laughs] And if we don’t have a lighter you can just turn on the stove. Just run it through there.
MIKE JOHNSON
Ugh. Jesus Christ. [Kyle laughs] Uhh…
KYLE GETZ
A listener’s Gayest & Straightest?
MIKE JOHNSON
Listener’s Gayest & Straightest. This comes to us from our Discord server. This is dustmyte’s: “Straightest: Raking my backyard and sweeping my patios”, “Gayest: Listening to Brittney, Beyoncé, Doja, and Nicki while do that”.
KYLE GETZ
Nice! There’s always like something gay going on in my headphones. Like, it doesn’t matter what I’m doing or how straight it appears, it’s like, there’s gay things happening between my ears.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yep, yep, yep.
KYLE GETZ
I love that.
MIKE JOHNSON
My ears, my legs…
KYLE GETZ
My legs…
MIKE JOHNSON
My crack…
KYLE GETZ
My back.
MIKE JOHNSON
Whatever.
KYLE GETZ
Um, thank you to Joh Stoessel for requesting this episode.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah!
KYLE GETZ
We really appreciate it-
MIKE JOHNSON
Thanks, Joh.
KYLE GETZ
-and I hope you like it. And thank you to the dude that invented the high five, that you told me about on the Patreon segment.
MIKE JOHNSON
Oh yeah, that boy gay.
KYLE GETZ
Spunk me.
MIKE JOHNSON
Yeah.
KYLE GETZ
Um, and thank you to the following Gap Bridgers, who I guess can also spunk me: Andrew Bugbee, Christopher M, John Crawley, Stephen Portch, Joh Stoessel – hey, that’s the same guy.
MIKE JOHNSON
Hi, guy.
KYLE GETZ
Harry Shaw, Josh Copeland, Jonathan Montañez, Forrest Nail, Patrick Martin, James Barrow, Steve Douglas, Explosive Lasagna, Michael Cubbington, Just Jamie, Kevin Henderson, Tomas B, Timothy Saura, DustySands, AE Coleman, Chris Khachatourians, and Jerome York. Thank you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Thank you. That’s it! This has been Gayish. From the Chris Khachatourians studios, sort of, I’m Mike Johnson.
KYLE GETZ
I’m Kyle Getz. Until next week, be butch, be fabulous, be you.
MIKE JOHNSON
Byeee.
KYLE GETZ
Sports!
[Outro music plays, instrumental]
MIKE JOHNSON
[mouth popping sound] It’s a homer!
KYLE GETZ
[chuckles] Ha, ha he, he ha, he ho.
[Transcriptionist: C Dixon, CMDixonWork@gmail.com]